2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Okay, so now that we're one day passed the anniversary apparently, what's the new OUTRAGE OF THE DAY!!!! by our knuckledragger friends? I heard Obama failed to stop and pet a dog during one of his campaign stops. Could this be the first hint of him being an anticaninite????

Equating petting a dog to not fully acknowledging the slaughter of 1.5 million Armenians by the Ottoman Empire is fail on so many levels. Not one of your best.

Part of what makes this look bad is that Germany, who has very close ties with Turkey and is Turkey's biggest trade partner, is set to officially recognize genocide for the first time via legislation. It'll be interesting to see if there is a price to pay for Germany doing so. If not, that makes it look like Obama (and past administrations) have caved to Turkish pressure for little or no reason. If Turkey really cratered relations with all the countries who use the term genocide, Turkey would have big problems. I read that even Putin calls it genocide and will be at the 100th anniversary events in Armenia.

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

As you guys like Putin more than Obama, I'm not surprised to see you cite him as a figure who's lead we should be following. Ronald Reagan is rolling over in his grave right now.

Where is Obama not acknowledging the deaths? I've seen nothing where he's disputed 1M Armenians died 100 years ago? The semantics of the labeling is what your panties are in a bunch about. Atrocity vs Genocide? At the end of the day you're still dead.

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Part of what makes this look bad is that Germany, who has very close ties with Turkey and is Turkey's biggest trade partner, is set to officially recognize genocide for the first time via legislation. It'll be interesting to see if there is a price to pay for Germany doing so. If not, that makes it look like Obama (and past administrations) have caved to Turkish pressure for little or no reason. If Turkey really cratered relations with all the countries who use the term genocide, Turkey would have big problems. I read that even Putin calls it genocide and will be at the 100th anniversary events in Armenia.

Three things about this.

1. The US always carries more symbolism. The Netherlands and New Zealand can get away with foreign policy as ethics -- nobody calls them The Great Satan. We're in more of a bind.

2. Germany can tweak the Turks because there's a lot of anti-Turk nativist (read: racist) sentiment in Germany. It's a good political move.

3. Russia and Turkey are bitter historical rivals. Putin tweaking the Turks is like an Irish pol tweaking the Brits. It's what you do.

Remember, I agree with you that you have a point. However none of these comparisons makes much sense. International relations are not fungibles.

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

As you guys like Putin more than Obama, I'm not surprised to see you cite him as a figure who's lead we should be following. Ronald Reagan is rolling over in his grave right now.

Where is Obama not acknowledging the deaths? I've seen nothing where he's disputed 1M Armenians died 100 years ago? The semantics of the labeling is what your panties are in a bunch about. Atrocity vs Genocide? At the end of the day you're still dead.

Hey, if Putin is more enlightened than Obama in a given area, that says something right there. What do you have against the Armenians? It's a lot more than semantics for a not that large ethnic group to have seen 1.5 million of their people slaughtered. If you were Armenian, you wouldn't make light of all this. Again, you're not at your best here. I'd advise not digging yourself in any deeper.

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Three things about this.

1. The US always carries more symbolism. The Netherlands and New Zealand can get away with foreign policy as ethics -- nobody calls them The Great Satan. We're in more of a bind.

2. Germany can tweak the Turks because there's a lot of anti-Turk nativist (read: racist) sentiment in Germany. It's a good political move.

3. Russia and Turkey are bitter historical rivals. Putin tweaking the Turks is like an Irish pol tweaking the Brits. It's what you do.

Remember, I agree with you that you have a point. However none of these comparisons makes much sense. International relations are not fungibles.

1. This cuts both ways. It also carries a lot more weight when we're unwilling to acknowledge something obvious and it carries more risk for Turkey to push back against us than it would to push back against New Zealand or someone like that.

2. Germany also has a very sizable Turkish population and major trade ties, plus all the European ties and all, so again, there are considerations in both directions. And Germany, as the biggest heavyweight in Europe, has some of the stature you assign to the U.S. in your first point.

3. I agree one shouldn't put a lot of weight to the fact that Putin weighs in as he has. Armenia has good relations with Russia, seeing Russia as a bit of a guarantor against large neighboring Muslim nations who have not been friendly toward the Armenians. It still is ironic though that Putin is calling it genocide while Obama avoids such acknowledgment.

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

1. This cuts both ways. It also carries a lot more weight when we're unwilling to acknowledge something obvious and it carries more risk for Turkey to push back against us than it would to push back against New Zealand or someone like that.

2. Germany also has a very sizable Turkish population and major trade ties, plus all the European ties and all, so again, there are considerations in both directions. And Germany, as the biggest heavyweight in Europe, has some of the stature you assign to the U.S. in your first point.

3. I agree one shouldn't put a lot of weight to the fact that Putin weighs in as he has. Armenia has good relations with Russia, seeing Russia as a bit of a guarantor against large neighboring Muslim nations who have not been friendly toward the Armenians. It still is ironic though that Putin is calling it genocide while Obama avoids such acknowledgment.

1. Absolutely agree. The bad news is we run the world. The good news is that lets us influence how it's run.

2. Good points, all.

3. I'm immune to the faux moral leadership of Russia because I read RT a lot. They call "genocide" at the drop of a hat as long as it fits their narrative. One really interesting case is the Rape of Nanking. Depending on how relations are going with China and Japan, it's either a tragedy of history or a hoax. I swear they sometimes change so fast they still have old archived stories saying the "wrong" thing. Pravda and RT (not sure if Izvestia is still around) make VOA look like a no spin zone.

[5mn_Major]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

I don't think the US should do anything based on the sensitive nature of that part of the world right now.

But I do agree that taking such a step as recognizing genocide against the Armenians is a pretty big deal for Germany. Its not just that they are a big trading partner. The relationship with that huge Turkish minority hasn't always been the smoothest, and the Germans are now a very politically correct/sensitive group and that will make for an uncomfortable internal situation. It would have been far easier to not do anything.

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Hey, if Putin is more enlightened than Obama in a given area, that says something right there. What do you have against the Armenians? It's a lot more than semantics for a not that large ethnic group to have seen 1.5 million of their people slaughtered. If you were Armenian, you wouldn't make light of all this. Again, you're not at your best here. I'd advise not digging yourself in any deeper.

I'm not too concerned with your scorn, Bob. No offense. I'm wondering how often you feel Putin is more enlightened than Obama, as conservatives in general tend to have a soft spot for the guy but I'll let you speak for yourself on that one. I have nothing against the Armenians and they certainly have every right to press the issue. Somehow I don't think solidarity with the Armenians is your angle however.

A final note. At some point people need to move past things. 100 years ago is a long time. Will you start advocating for 40 acres and a mule next (a promise made a mere 50 years prior to 1915)?

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

At some point people need to move past things. 100 years ago is a long time. Will you start advocating for 40 acres and a mule next (a promise made a mere 50 years prior to 1915)?

That's simply not how tribalism works. And it's also not for us to say when somebody's statute of limitations of outrage expires. That's the equivalent of fat GOP whites sanctimoniously lecturing blacks on how they should let slavery go.

If your people effed my people, it's up to me when I decide to forgive you. The Germans don't get to tell the Jews, "last call."

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

I'm not too concerned with your scorn, Bob. No offense. I'm wondering how often you feel Putin is more enlightened than Obama, as conservatives in general tend to have a soft spot for the guy but I'll let you speak for yourself on that one. I have nothing against the Armenians and they certainly have every right to press the issue. Somehow I don't think solidarity with the Armenians is your angle however.

A final note. At some point people need to move past things. 100 years ago is a long time. Will you start advocating for 40 acres and a mule next (a promise made a mere 50 years prior to 1915)?

Actually I know some Armenians, so it's more than just an academic exercise to me. 100 years is a long time. A long time for Turkey to deny historical fact. If Turkey had acknowledged this long ago, everyone would have moved on, relations and life in the region would likely be better, and Turkey wouldn't look more backward than a Kepler description of Alabama.

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

The Senate actually did something today! They finally confirmed Loretta Lynch to be the next Attorney General, on the condition that she spend the next 18 months investigating Hillary Clinton for TACOGHAZI!

[5mn_Major]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

For all the conservative media out there, I'm kinda surprised that even more fear and hate is targeted at Russia. Its very much second fiddle to the Islamic extremist focus.

and Turkey wouldn't look more backward than a Kepler description of Alabama.

Although not a believer that Alabama is anything special (or even frankly ordinary), I have to agree Turkey is on another shelf. I was there long enough to find out that are serious issues afloat. I wouldn't be a fan of the country joining the EU and visitors should be very careful.

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

That's simply not how tribalism works. And it's also not for us to say when somebody's statute of limitations of outrage expires. That's the equivalent of fat GOP whites sanctimoniously lecturing blacks on how they should let slavery go.

If your people effed my people, it's up to me when I decide to forgive you. The Germans don't get to tell the Jews, "last call."

Which I clearly stated when I wrote, and I quote "I have nothing against the Armenians and they certainly have every right to press the issue.". Then I went on to call out Bob's motives, "Somehow I don't think solidarity with the Armenians is your angle however."

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

For all the conservative media out there, I'm kinda surprised that even more fear and hate is targeted at Russia.

They have a boner for Putin. The right has wanted a tyrant to ride them ever since de Maistre. They make liberty noises, but they will always be about the boot in the face.

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Which I clearly stated when I wrote, and I quote "I have nothing against the Armenians and they certainly have every right to press the issue.". Then I went on to call out Bob's motives, "Somehow I don't think solidarity with the Armenians is your angle however."

Which I then corrected you on in multiple ways.