2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

That's an well-written and well-thought out article; thanks for posting it. In general, First Things is a favorite "worthy opponent" on many of these types of issues.

I'll quote the author's own eloquent words:



I could not agree more. Free people must be serious, educated, and sincere in their pursuit of moral good, if they are to be the best possible actors in both the political and economic spheres. The gay rights movement, like emancipation movements prior to it, exemplifies this type of excellence. These movements, when countering majority prejudice, redeem democracy by first speaking and then voting truth to power, while the superiority of their moral message gradually persuades the larger polity to change their thinking. Powerful institutions, in the case of the gay rights movement, the Church, may stand in violent opposition to such changes, but to the degree that the minority has the ability to appeal to the angels of the citizens' better nature, decency does sometimes overwhelm that prejudice.

The Church has a problem: it is morally wrong on gay rights. This is a wrong that has haunted the Church from the days of the Patristic Fathers, and it is a gross violation of Christ's principles of love. Why the Church got this way is a question for historians and philosophers, but institutionally it has a lot of growing up to do. Hopefully it will take its evolution on the question of democracy itself to heart. There was a time when the Church condemned democratic movements and upheld divine right monarchy. For at least a century it was an impediment to the development of the very community of love that it wishes to see. Eventually, it pulled a 180. With time, it will do the same on women and then finally, once it has purged its own demons, on gays. It won't happen in this century, but it will happen.

In the meantime, at least it's on the right side on poverty, and frankly that's a much more significant problem facing the world than whether Adam and Steve have to get married in a courthouse rather than a church.

Key question is how one defines a vibrant public moral culture. Folks have widely varying definitions of that. Just noting that.

[johnnypohlfan]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Patience.

And when it doesn't happen, you'll simply claim that it didn't because nutjobs like you rallied on this claim so much that he just couldn't have gotten away with it, right? Win-win for the tinfoil hat crowd!

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

And when it doesn't happen, you'll simply claim that it didn't because nutjobs like you rallied on this claim so much that he just couldn't have gotten away with it, right? Win-win for the tinfoil hat crowd!

Nah, it'll restore a tiny bit of faith in the country actually following the Constitution. It has just about been completely destroyed within the last 15 years.

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Key question is how one defines a vibrant public moral culture. Folks have widely varying definitions of that. Just noting that.

Of course, and a vibrant culture will includes lots of disagreements. It's not just that not everybody's moving at the same speed -- not everybody's even taking the same road. Utopian movements tend to forget the latter. Sometimes discrepant moralities can survive together (I eat meat, vegans don't), sometimes they can't (ISIS wants to chop my head off for, oh, about a thousand reasons). Part of the advance of culture is the "defanging" of absolutist moral claims so diverse people can live next door to each other. But obviously there are some absolutist claims (prohibitions of murder and torture) where it's right for one view to impose itself on everybody.

We've been at culture for only about 10,000 years. If it were easy we'd have gotten it right by now. Give it time.

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Of course, and a vibrant culture will includes lots of disagreements. It's not just that not everybody's moving at the same speed -- not everybody's even taking the same road. Utopian movements tend to forget the latter. Sometimes discrepant moralities can survive together (I eat meat, vegans don't), sometimes they can't (ISIS wants to chop my head off for, oh, about a thousand reasons). Part of the advance of culture is the "defanging" of absolutist moral claims so diverse people can live next door to each other. But obviously there are some absolutist claims (prohibitions of murder and torture) where it's right for one view to impose itself on everybody.

We've been at culture for only about 10,000 years. If it were easy we'd have gotten it right by now. Give it time.

You are an optimist.

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

You are an optimist.

That's what comes of thinking "total depravity" means nothing outside of the upper deck at an Eagles game.

[geezer]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

But obviously there are some absolutist claims (prohibitions of murder and torture) where it's right for one view to impose itself on everybody.

This is what I've tried to explain so often...

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Absolutist claims aren't always absolutist. Take abortion, which some consider absolutist (murder), while others take a different view. I'm not trying to start an abortion debate, just that that's an example where even absolutist claims aren't cut and dried from a societal perspective. Or take torture and its implications post-9/11 and that debate. Just saying those aren't as neat and tidy as one might initially think.

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Absolutist claims aren't always absolutist. Take abortion, which some consider absolutist (murder), while others take a different view. I'm not trying to start an abortion debate, just that that's an example where even absolutist claims aren't cut and dried from a societal perspective. Or take torture and its implications post-9/11 and that debate. Just saying those aren't as neat and tidy as one might initially think.

But I would argue that murder is an absolutist claim. The divergence isn't "sometimes murder is OK," it's "I think that's murder," "well, I don't." That's a key difference. On torture, I hope it's the same framing problem, because if there are people who say "that's torture and it's fine with me" they're either adolescent boys who have been watching too much 24 or they're sociopaths.

Nothing important is neat and tidy. Digging into the guts is the only way to get farther than the empty slogans, but, of course, the guts are really messy.

[Slap Shot]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Key question is how one defines a vibrant public moral culture. Folks have widely varying definitions of that. Just noting that.

It starts with, "do unto others" and goes from there. Unfortunately, bigotry is just one the catalysts to pushing such ideals aside.

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

But I would argue that murder is an absolutist claim. The divergence isn't "sometimes murder is OK," it's "I think that's murder," "well, I don't." That's a key difference. On torture, I hope it's the same framing problem, because if there are people who say "that's torture and it's fine with me" they're either adolescent boys who have been watching too much 24 or they're sociopaths.

Nothing important is neat and tidy. Digging into the guts is the only way to get farther than the empty slogans, but, of course, the guts are really messy.

That last part is all I was trying to point out.

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

That last part is all I was trying to point out.

I think there's widespread agreement that there are no simple answers to complex problems.

"Life is pain, Princess. Anybody who tells you different is selling something."

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Gotta love South Carolina still flying the Confederate Flag. Good job, Whitie. Fight the good fight.

[Kepler]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Gotta love South Carolina still flying the Confederate Flag. Good job, Whitie. Fight the good fight.

When "Malcolm X" came out I was living in NC, and the herpa-derps all had stars and bars bumper stickers that read "you keep your X, I'll keep mine."

Those people aint subtle.

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: 2nd Term Part X - A link to a fore gone conclusion

Gotta love South Carolina still flying the Confederate Flag. Good job, Whitie. Fight the good fight.

I would love to watch the fireworks if someone tried to handle this Penn State-style. "Take the flag down, or we will."