The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

[Rover]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

More proof Republicans have no ideas on Health Care.



https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/23/u...smtyp=cur&_r=0

That's not an idea. That's a cop out.

That's not a surprise. I heard this different systems for different states idea floated last week. It also works for me. Presumably the states that get fuked by this are the Republican ones, and for any swing states you now have an issue to run with on the state level. And before you say it won't matter, John Bel Edwards is governor of Louisiana partly on the expanded Medicaid issue amongst other things (Jindal being a screw up, Vitter a perv, etc).

[Kepler]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

That's not an idea. That's a cop out.

Well, the eventual Republican "solution" will just be words. Right now they're trying to figure out how to keep Obamacare in place and just change the name so the rubes will be mollified. They have no idea at all what to do, because it's an INSANELY DIFFICULT PROBLEM and none of them have the mental wattage to open a mail box let alone solve our health cost crisis.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

Well, the eventual Republican "solution" will just be words. Right now they're trying to figure out how to keep Obamacare in place and just change the name so the rubes will be mollified. They have no idea at all what to do, because it's an INSANELY DIFFICULT PROBLEM and none of them have the mental wattage to open a mail box let alone solve our health cost crisis.

I thought privatization and capitalism solved everything? Seems to me a straight repeal would meet their needs.

[jerphisch]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

Here's a surprise, Aetna pulled out of Obamacare markets not because they were losing money in those markets (they weren't), but they thought it would help their merger with Humana.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...0441a8f71435f?

[Kepler]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

Here's a surprise, Aetna pulled out of Obamacare markets not because they were losing money in those markets (they weren't), but they thought it would help their merger with Humana.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...0441a8f71435f?

LOL. Good. I'm insured. Sod the proles.

[jerphisch]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

LOL. Good. I'm insured. Sod the proles.

I get that sentiment, but actually think this specific issue may be bigger than that. You're insured now, but this demonstrates that as long as insurance is provided by for profit corporations, their stock price is king. If cancelling your policy can enrich the CEO, you may not be insured. This is pure self sabotage for corporate gain.

[Kepler]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

I get that sentiment, but actually think this specific issue may be bigger than that. You're insured now, but this demonstrates that as long as insurance is provided by for profit corporations, their stock price is king. If cancelling your policy can enrich the CEO, you may not be insured. This is pure self sabotage for corporate gain.

Oh, of course it is. I fully recognize that and believe we need to start creating alternatives to for-profit medicine which are also free of the state.

The left has always worried about how right-wing business harms people. We have never thought to simply drive them out of business. Creating a parallel private economy with a premium cost to absorb paying fair wages, subsidizing services to the poor by charging the rich more, observing safety and environmental regulations which we ourselves write, and then withdrawing from the capitalist private economy, all without involving the state at all, is the way of the future.

We've got the brains to deliver better services and the money to pay more for them. Let's just drive them out of business. Use capitalism to destroy capitalism.

[FreshFish]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

I get that sentiment, but actually think this specific issue may be bigger than that. You're insured now, but this demonstrates that as long as insurance is provided by for profit corporations, their stock price is king. If cancelling your policy can enrich the CEO, you may not be insured. This is pure self sabotage for corporate gain.

You need some kind of measuring stick to hold people accountable for their performance. If not "profit," what would you put in its place?

People need incentives to keep improving things; absent incentives, we get a lazy bureaucracy that only cares about its own welfare.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

You need some kind of measuring stick to hold people accountable for their performance. If not "profit," what would you put in its place?

People need incentives to keep improving things; absent incentives, we get a lazy bureaucracy that only cares about its own welfare.

That isn't the problem.

Profit is always one of the measuring sticks. No one is saying any different. The PROBLEM is that right now it's the only measuring stick. The longer that's the case the more ****ed up the country is going to end up.

[jerphisch]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

You need some kind of measuring stick to hold people accountable for their performance. If not "profit," what would you put in its place?

People need incentives to keep improving things; absent incentives, we get a lazy bureaucracy that only cares about its own welfare.

So to be clear, you need profit as a motivation otherwise people will only care about profit?

You do realize there are very effective non-profits that deliver based on peoples belief in their mission and desire to fulfill it? (In addition to them still getting paid to do a good job)

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

Oh, of course it is. I fully recognize that and believe we need to start creating alternatives to for-profit medicine which are also free of the state.

The left has always worried about how right-wing business harms people. We have never thought to simply drive them out of business. Creating a parallel private economy with a premium cost to absorb paying fair wages, subsidizing services to the poor by charging the rich more, observing safety and environmental regulations which we ourselves write, and then withdrawing from the capitalist private economy, all without involving the state at all, is the way of the future.

We've got the brains to deliver better services and the money to pay more for them. Let's just drive them out of business. Use capitalism to destroy capitalism.

And you know what the funny thing is? The true capitalists has been egging the commies on to do this for gosh knows how long. Put your model up in direct competition, and may the best person win. Although something tells me you probably won't. My evidence: A very left-wing relative that preaches all this socialism, yet won't put up and set up shop in NYS, but rather hide in the haven of Texas.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

So to be clear, you need profit as a motivation otherwise people will only care about profit?

You do realize there are very effective non-profits that deliver based on peoples belief in their mission and desire to fulfill it? (In addition to them still getting paid to do a good job)

As a shelter for their earnings, from which they take a salary. Read: Clinton Foundation.

[Kepler]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

And you know what the funny thing is? The true capitalists has been egging the commies on to do this for gosh knows how long. Put your model up in direct competition, and may the best person win. Although something tells me you probably won't. My evidence: A very left-wing relative that preaches all this socialism, yet won't put up and set up shop in NYS, but rather hide in the haven of Texas.

If you think I'm talking about communism or even socialism you completely missed my point.

I'm talking about a free market system. The only change will be in what the customers demand. I propose creating a system where consumers demand that product quality includes the quality of the world produced: the employees' wages, the owners' contributions to charitable causes, the observance of environmental protection standards in the making of the product. I propose we do this privately, as our own responsibility. Ignore statute and develop conscience.

We've seen little efforts of the same type: fundies flocking to Chik-Fil-A for political reasons, boycotts of companies over their hiring practices.

The beauty of this is it will be entirely voluntary. Where we organized as workers in the 20th century, we will organize as consumers, in sufficient numbers that we can force companies to either change or die. It's what we've done through the ballot hitherto. Now we should do it with our purchasing decisions. Libertarians have always made the valid point that the state is dangerously placed to threaten freedoms (most neglect the fact that inequality is a far more immediate and non-hypothetical threat).

I propose we reject Rousseau and embrace Adam Smith and Hayek, both of who insisted society must recognize and through some means ensure the needs of the neediest are met. Plenty of subjective factors contribute to product "quality": aesthetics, for example. We simply need to insist on adding other factors when weighing our decisions.

Obviously, many people are blind to these things. Many people only care about themselves. I'm saying, let them go. Those of us who do care should create our own parallel system and live within it. Let the right have the state and let them rot.

[Rover]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

If you think I'm talking about communism or even socialism you completely missed my point.

I'm talking about a free market system. The only change will be in what the customers demand. I propose creating a system where consumers demand that product quality includes the quality of the world produced: the employees' wages, the owners' contributions to charitable causes, the observance of environmental protection standards in the making of the product. I propose we do this privately, as our own responsibility. Ignore statute and develop conscience.

We've seen little efforts of the same type: fundies flocking to Chik-Fil-A for political reasons, boycotts of companies over their hiring practices.

The beauty of this is it will be entirely voluntary. Where we organized as workers in the 20th century, we will organize as consumers, in sufficient numbers that we can force companies to either change or die. It's what we've done through the ballot hitherto. Now we should do it with our purchasing decisions. Libertarians have always made the valid point that the state is dangerously placed to threaten freedoms (most neglect the fact that inequality is a far more immediate and non-hypothetical threat).

I propose we reject Rousseau and embrace Adam Smith and Hayek, both of who insisted society must recognize and through some means ensure the needs of the neediest are met. Plenty of subjective factors contribute to product "quality": aesthetics, for example. We simply need to insist on adding other factors when weighing our decisions.

Obviously, many people are blind to these things. Many people only care about themselves. I'm saying, let them go. Those of us who do care should create our own parallel system and live within it. Let the right have the state and let them rot.

How do you propose we get people to participate? Mind control?

[St. Clown]

Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

How do you propose we get people to participate? Mind control?

The Mormon Church. So mind control it is!