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  • #661
    Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

    Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
    I know nothing of the organization or the article's authors, but there are a two graphs for you to review. One might incite some people to action while the other may placate those who really want the PPACA to work yet others will note that while the trend is positive, it's not exactly what the country was promised back in 2009.

    ETA: Also, read the actual article in which the graphs were presented. There are some important things actually stated by the writers to help their readers get a clearer picture of things.
    That is excellent. Thank you.
    **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

    Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
    Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

    Comment

    • #662
      Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

      Originally posted by Rover View Post
      I hate to keep humiliating you like this, but 20M extra people are covered and costs are lower than they would have been had the law not been passed. Only a total idiot or someone with an axe to grind would still be questioning this. If an insurer or insurers wants to leave a market that's their right. Any state that feels they are undercovered on the exchanges should utilize the law's existing provisions and set up their own public option.

      So yes, occasionally an insurer will leave a marketplace...just like before the ACA. And sometimes rates will go up....just like before the ACA. The law isn't intended to prevent any of these things ever happening. However, its a simple judgment as to the law's success. Are we better off than before it went into effect? Answer: a clear yes. Even Fishy has given up the ghost on this for chrissakes.
      You haven't humiliated anyone.

      Yes, the ACA partially accomplished a couple of things that it wanted to do. It wanted to get everyone insured. Thus far it has failed, but there are certainly more people insured than before.

      The law intended to get people on insurance who otherwise struggled to get insurance due to pre-existing conditions. The law has caused that to happen, again not completely, but it is better than before.

      But supporters also claimed that with all these new people in the market for insurance, we would see all these new companies entering the exchanges, causing competition and a corresponding decrease in insurance premiums. Huge fail there. You post, "occasionally an insurer will leave a marketplace." In Minnesota, Medica, United Healthcare and BCBS are the insurers. They are the huge providers of insurance coverage in this state and they are running for the hills. That is why, as Scooby has pointed out, people get their notices and find out how much their premiums are jumping and they are shocked.

      You and others like you can continue with the "nothing to see here, move along" mantra, but the public ain't buying it.
      That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

      Comment

      • #663
        Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

        Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
        But supporters also claimed that with all these new people in the market for insurance, we would see all these new companies entering the exchanges, causing competition and a corresponding decrease in insurance premiums. Huge fail there. You post, "occasionally an insurer will leave a marketplace." In Minnesota, Medica, United Healthcare and BCBS are the insurers. They are the huge providers of insurance coverage in this state and they are running for the hills. That is why, as Scooby has pointed out, people get their notices and find out how much their premiums are jumping and they are shocked.

        You and others like you can continue with the "nothing to see here, move along" mantra, but the public ain't buying it.
        Where in gods name did people say premiums would go down? This is a classic strawman argument of making up a claim and then arguing against it. This isn't Fox news. What advocates did say is it would ease the cost increases for insurance. While we can't know exactly the hypothetical rate people would have paid in a non-ACA world, St. Clown's link spelled it out that increases are at 15 year lows. We've seen this across the board.

        Secondly, you show your bias which you freely attribute to me by taking a provision of the law which hasn't even been in effect for 3 years and jumping to conclusions. One has to wonder what people like you were saying about Medicare and Social Security then they were in their infancy.

        Lastly, the polling I found from Gallup this year had the ACA at 47/49 on approval-disapproval which pretty much matches the split in this country so I'm not sure the public has come around to your viewpoint en masse.
        Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

        Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

        "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

        Comment

        • #664
          Originally posted by Rover View Post
          Where in gods name did people say premiums would go down?
          Wasn't it the President who also claimed that you could keep your own doctor and your plan?
          CCT '77 & '78
          4 kids
          5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
          1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

          ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
          - Benjamin Franklin

          Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

          I want to live forever. So far, so good.

          Comment

          • #665
            Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

            Originally posted by Rover View Post
            Where in gods name did people say premiums would go down? This is a classic strawman argument of making up a claim and then arguing against it. This isn't Fox news. What advocates did say is it would ease the cost increases for insurance. While we can't know exactly the hypothetical rate people would have paid in a non-ACA world, St. Clown's link spelled it out that increases are at 15 year lows. We've seen this across the board.

            Secondly, you show your bias which you freely attribute to me by taking a provision of the law which hasn't even been in effect for 3 years and jumping to conclusions. One has to wonder what people like you were saying about Medicare and Social Security then they were in their infancy.

            Lastly, the polling I found from Gallup this year had the ACA at 47/49 on approval-disapproval which pretty much matches the split in this country so I'm not sure the public has come around to your viewpoint en masse.
            Here's the problem. First, because the ACA was such a change, no one including the big insurers had any idea how this would work. No one knew how many would or would not sign up. No one knew what usage of health care would be like. It was just a crapshoot.

            What we are starting to see is that the insurers grossly underestimated what their premiums should be. Thus, this ACA "effect" you love to tout of slowing the cost increases for insurance is a mirage. It's a mirage caused by creating a new system and asking the insurers to guess what the premiums should be. It's a mirage created by the reinsurance paid by the government for the first three years to help offset some of their costs, reinsurance which is about to end and from what I've been able to find will certainly boost costs by a minimum of 5-7% per year.

            But that mirage is about to disappear, along with its creator. Meanwhile I'll be listening to sad stories where employees tell me they got their notice and their insurance premium went up 15% this year.
            That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

            Comment

            • #666
              Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

              Originally posted by Rover View Post
              Where in gods name did people say premiums would go down?
              Right here buddy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o65vMUk5so
              **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

              Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
              Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

              Comment

              • #667
                Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

                Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                Here's the problem. First, because the ACA was such a change, no one including the big insurers had any idea how this would work. No one knew how many would or would not sign up. No one knew what usage of health care would be like. It was just a crapshoot.

                What we are starting to see is that the insurers grossly underestimated what their premiums should be. Thus, this ACA "effect" you love to tout of slowing the cost increases for insurance is a mirage. It's a mirage caused by creating a new system and asking the insurers to guess what the premiums should be. It's a mirage created by the reinsurance paid by the government for the first three years to help offset some of their costs, reinsurance which is about to end and from what I've been able to find will certainly boost costs by a minimum of 5-7% per year.

                But that mirage is about to disappear, along with its creator. Meanwhile I'll be listening to sad stories where employees tell me they got their notice and their insurance premium went up 15% this year.
                I agree up to a point in that yes the actual makeup of the insurance pool was an unknown, and insurers and the govt need a longer trend than they currently have to smooth out rate expectations. That's just life though. What I tend to push back against is the notion that everything should have worked exactly as expected from day 1. Even Social Security, widely thought of as the most successful govt program in history, has had some tweaks since its passage in the 1930's.

                What I don't necessarily agree with is the idea that a mirage has been created on lower costs. More likely some insurers guessed at rates but also low-balled them a bid to attract new customers. But, that's par for the course on any insurer trying to gain new customers. Hence the free market aspect we've heard about. This happened at my employer where the existing insurance option went up 15% YoY but if you switched it was no increase. A 2nd new carrier offered 5%. The actions of individual carriers is not dictated by the law. You also must shop around. However the cost savings are real in several areas not related to this. First is insurers must put 80% of premiums towards claims instead of pocketing half of it. Next if you have insurance you now by law have a out of pocket maximum. As someone who's wife had twin boys last year, let me tell you that's a BIG savings. Lastly preventative care and regular check ups are now covered by insurance.

                As advocates said before, during, and after the law passed - any tweaks to make it work better are totally welcome. But, I wrote out here during the discussion that there's two ways to judge the law's success. 1) Do more people have insurance, 2) did the cost curve bend, as in total payouts are less than expected payouts. Check and check.

                Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
                Right here buddy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o65vMUk5so
                Scoobs can't see your link but Obama claimed premiums would be $2,500 lower than they would have been had the law not been enacted, not that you'd be paying $2,500 less than before. For someone who's a supposed liberal you sure do parrot conservative talking points a lot.
                Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

                Comment

                • #668
                  Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

                  Wheeeeeeeeeee, we saved $2500. So our increase instead of 10 grand would have been 12.5 grand. Yahoooooo!!!!

                  The entire Health Care system is a sham.
                  **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                  Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                  Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

                  Comment

                  • #669
                    Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

                    Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
                    Wheeeeeeeeeee, we saved $2500. So our increase instead of 10 grand would have been 12.5 grand. Yahoooooo!!!!

                    The entire Health Care system is a sham.
                    Scooby if you are so cavalier about 2.5K kindly write me a check for that amount.

                    The health care system does need re-doing. That's part of what the ACA is attempting to do. Step 1 is to get people covered. Step 2 is to go after anybody price gouging particularly with pharmaceuticals.
                    Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                    Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                    "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

                    Comment

                    • #670
                      Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

                      So many more people are ensured. Preventative health care is now largely included in coverage (it wasn't before). There is a' no pre existing conditions' clause (many couldn't get insurance because of some pre existing conditions - no more). Limited accessability due to lack of previous health care (used to be that if you weren't covered, it was extremely difficult to get coverage - no more). The marketplace is more transparent due to exchanges for those that spend time shopping....and healthcare costs have moderated? Sounds like ACA is largely a win.
                      Go Gophers!

                      Comment

                      • #671
                        Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

                        Originally posted by brookyone View Post
                        I've had chronic kidney failure (alport syndrome) my entire life with ESRF since the early nineties. I know chronic and acute...don't know what basic is.
                        Sent a message.
                        Go Gophers!

                        Comment

                        • #672
                          Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

                          Your rates have gone up $10k? Really?

                          I don't know if I buy that.
                          Code:
                          As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
College Hockey 6       College Football 0
BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
                          Originally posted by SanTropez
                          May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                          Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                          I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                          Originally posted by Kepler
                          When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                          He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

                          Comment

                          • #673
                            Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

                            Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                            Your rates have gone up $10k? Really?

                            I don't know if I buy that.
                            Since Obamacare has passed I've easily cleared that. Easily.
                            **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                            Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                            Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

                            Comment

                            • #674
                              Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

                              So in six years you've paid $10k for your family?
                              Code:
                              As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
College Hockey 6       College Football 0
BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
                              Originally posted by SanTropez
                              May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                              Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                              I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                              Originally posted by Kepler
                              When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                              He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

                              Comment

                              • #675
                                Re: The PPACA Thread Part III - Let's have a healthy debate!

                                Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                                So in six years you've paid $10k for your family?
                                No, my rates for my family have increased 10K over the last 6 years. Blue Cross Blue Shield increased rates 37% last year alone.
                                **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                                Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                                Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

                                Comment

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