Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

[St. Clown]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

I don't know that I would agree with that cause/effect proposal. In fact, there's nothing in that article that directly shows which is the cause and which is the effect. Did the money create the jerk attitude or does having a jerk attitude make the person more apt to become rich? The article only stated that they observed rich people being selfish. Congrats, we see that all the time in life. We have a self-proclaimed rich person on this very site who likes to brag about his income compared to others on here and takes absolute glee in acting like a jerk. Did becoming rich (assumption) make him that way or was it the other way around?

[geezer]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

I don't know that I would agree with that cause/effect proposal. In fact, there's nothing in that article that directly shows which is the cause and which is the effect. Did the money create the jerk attitude or does having a jerk attitude make the person more apt to become rich? The article only stated that they observed rich people being selfish. Congrats, we see that all the time in life. We have a self-proclaimed rich person on this very site who likes to brag about his income compared to others on here and takes absolute glee in acting like a jerk. Did becoming rich (assumption) make him that way or was it the other way around?

I have to think it can happen both ways. Just my opinion, but some people who "make it" seem to develop the attitude that they earned it because they are better and start to resent the less fortunate/driven for being less motivated or whatever. IMO if some of those same people had stayed poor they would have held on to their empathy.
edit: I'm a little surprised this discussion hasn't gone full-bore partisan yet, but if anyone is tempted to go there, I would assert that there are just as many "liberal elites" as there are "fat cat Republicans". Income inequality reversal, like personal liberties, should be a nonpartisan cause.

[Kepler]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Income inequality reversal, like personal liberties, should be a nonpartisan cause.

It should and insofar as conservatives want to see barriers to people lifting themselves out of poverty, it can be. The problem is the super rich become a rentier class with a symbiosis with government: they bribe, er I mean contribute to officials who then use the money to brainwash, er I mean educate, voters. For whatever reason most conservatives turn a blind eye to this obvious corruption of the democratic process.

Real conservatives should want to break down the largest concentrations of wealth because it is by tapping those concentrations that government intrudes into the supposedly free market. Bless their heart, conservatives think capitalism works, so why do they sometimes tacitly, sometimes explicitly support the very forces that are undermining it? The only answer I can see is that they are being cynical: they know those forces are most likely to push government in directions they more or less agree with.

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

You seem to have missed the essential element of "the deal": it is a trade-off of one tax for another, there is no tax avoidance. Either you have an estate tax + step up in basis or you have a capital gains tax + carryforward basis and no estate tax.

The step-up in basis plays no role in how the mega-rich transfer money between generations since the estate tax has been 50% - 55% for that entire time period, with a low exemption. Only after the 2008 election did the estate tax exemption get raised and the estate tax rate lowered to 40%.

No, I understood it completely. I'd rather have an estate tax AND remove the step up.

[geezer]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

For whatever reason most people turn a blind eye to this obvious corruption of the democratic process.

FYP. I don't think someone can say "the problem is the other party" on this issue, Mr. Soros. For partisans of either stripe, corruption seems to be OK as long as we agree with the ends.

[Kepler]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

FYP. I don't think someone can say "the problem is the other party" on this issue, Mr. Soros. For partisans of either stripe, corruption seems to be OK as long as we agree with the ends.

Let's say for a moment that the parties are equally culpable (I don't think that's true because the GOP has a built-in tie to big business through their pro-capital, anti-labor positions, but let's say for a moment it is true.) Even if the Dems have the same disease, it still invites the question: why, and what can be done to stop it?

[geezer]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Let's say for a moment that the parties are equally culpable (I don't think that's true because the GOP has a built-in tie to big business through their pro-capital, anti-labor positions, but let's say for a moment it is true.) Even if the Dems have the same disease, it still invites the question: why, and what can be done to stop it?

You're correct that it's a bigger problem on the right. But "Hollywood", "environmentalism" etc are among the powerful corrupt liberal institutions that keep the kickbacks flowing to the Democrats. And Wall Street is feeding both sides of the trough.
The veneer of altruism for "my side" only holds if you're trying really hard to put faith in it. Think about Albert Gore Junior and his well-traveled private jet. Nobody but a fool would believe he personally cares about environmentalism. Follow the money.
As to the questions, 1) greed, 2) I was hoping to hear alternatives. I think step one is for the peasants to agree that fixing it would benefit both sides and join forces.

[Kepler]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

I think step one is for the peasants to agree that fixing it would benefit both sides and join forces.

Well, I'm all about the peasants.

The only way to unite the peasants is to ignore the Culture War. That means everybody puts their gay marriage, abortion, prayer in schools hobbyhorse on the back burner and starts talking about wealth inequality, social mobility, taxation, debt forgiveness, etc. There's a reason the economy stagnated for the majority at the very time the Culture War started -- that was a brilliant feint to divide the forces who could have stopped the plutocrats.

Here's an interesting cross-national comparison over a shorter timeframe. As the wealthy draw more wealth from the middle class, investment rates for things that help narrow income inequality, like education and social programs, drop, thus pushing even more wealth to the upper class, and so on. The trend is further reinforced as economies and government policies retool to where the money is, essentially becoming courtiers to the wealthy. The only way to put a brake on this and turn the tide back is politically, so one would expect to see efforts to curtail the franchise for the poor and lower middle class. And right on schedule come voter suppression laws, particularly in states that are more under the thrall of the top class.

[geezer]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

And right on schedule come voter suppression laws, particularly in states that are more under the thrall of the top class.

I'm coming around in general, but is there any hint anywhere that asking people to show their ID to vote has ever affected an election (I assume this is what you're talking about)? This smells like a class warfare-type red herring.

[FreshFish]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Income inequality reversal, like personal liberties, should be a nonpartisan cause.

Must respectfully disagree; it is not "income" inequality that is a problem, it is persistent wealth inequality that is by far the more important concern.

People's incomes vary tremendously from year to year, especially the way that it is reported. You are an employee at a start up and take some pay in stock rather than in cash. Your company goes public and you sell some shares. That gives you a big blip in income, for that one year. This is a "problem"? I don't see how.

If you look at income mobility statistics, there is quite a bit of movement of actual individual people from one income band to another over time. If it were exactly the same people in every income band in every year, I might agree that income inequality might be a problem, but the evidence indicates that it is not really that serious. Any time a person cashes out a successful investment, it is reported as "income" all in that one year, which distorts the picture tremendously. It is hard even to get reliable data because the definition of "income" has changed several times over the past 30 years.

Persistent wealth inequality is a totally different matter. There is strong empirical evidence that ameliorating persistent wealth inequality, if done "properly", really does have salutary economic results.

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

I have no where else to put this since I didn't want to have any political debates in the movies thread:

But has anyone noticed the huge influx of movies like Selma, Black or White, etc. recently? Is it because February is fast approaching or just the topic du jour?

[geezer]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Persistent wealth inequality is a totally different matter. There is strong empirical evidence that ameliorating persistent wealth inequality, if done "properly", really does have salutary economic results.

Those words are way too hard for me; You must be much smarter at stuff.
Or else you're a blowhard.

[St. Clown]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

I have no where else to put this since I didn't want to have any political debates in the movies thread:

But has anyone noticed the huge influx of movies like Selma, Black or White, etc. recently? Is it because February is fast approaching or just the topic du jour?

It's the topic du jour, just like gay people movies were really popular (or at least being made) a couple years ago. I found that it generally works in a sort of three-year ramp up process with these topical/agenda movies, where you'll see one or two movies in a given year, then there'll be a bunch more the next year, and then they tail off the next year. By the fourth year Hollywood is on to a completely new topic.

[Priceless]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

It's the topic du jour, just like gay people movies were really popular (or at least being made) a couple years ago. I found that it generally works in a sort of three-year ramp up process with these topical/agenda movies, where you'll see one or two movies in a given year, then there'll be a bunch more the next year, and then they tail off the next year. By the fourth year Hollywood is on to a completely new topic.

Um...these release dates are calculated months, even years, in advance. "Selma" has been planned since December 2009.

[St. Clown]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Um...these release dates are calculated months, even years, in advance. "Selma" has been planned since December 2009.

So they planned it out a few years in advance before getting bored of planning out more of them. Same net effect.