Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

[The Rube]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Right. College isn't for everyone. People whine about plumbers and auto mechanics charging too much, but if it was too much you wouldn't be giving them your business. What I'd like to see is for people in the "production" areas of larger businesses earning nearer what private contractors are able to command. Of course the trouble with relying on government to simply hike the minimum wage is that you end up with the flip side problem: earnings still aren't tied to actual value produced. And the trouble with organizing is that unions, as they grow, tend to become more controlling and overbearing (see: confiscation of paychecks for kickbacks to political candidates) than the company was as an independent employer. Not to mention the prevalence of free riders in powerful unions. I don't have a good solution other than shopping your services around... but I'm not opposed to hiking wages on upper earners. IMO it's just silly for anyone to say the work they've personally done the past year is worth millions of dollars. It's an illusion.

Funny you mention auto mechanic. My bro is one. He's been one for 18+ years. The knowledge they have to have due to modern technology is insane. It's not just nuts and bolts anymore.

[Jimjamesak]

I'll take a break from ignoring you:

The world needs ditch-diggers too, to borrow from Caddyshack. HVAC, warehousing, plumbing, etc...there's money there. No pretty jobs, but that's why they pay so well. Hell, garbagemen make some decent dough. Why? Who the heck wants to do it? If one can't get a decent paying white-collar job, then swallow your pride (for lack of a better term) and take up blue-collar. It's still an honorable profession. I take great pride in my work, and to any hater who wants to look down their nose, F you.

That's what I did. Nobody wants to be outside loading/unloading, deicing planes in crappy weather.

There's one of the office workers at my job who complains that we full-time tamper get paid too much. And then he says "but I wouldn't go outside in the winter!"

[CLS]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

A joke George Meany used to tell.

Lawyer needs the services of a plumber. Plumber does the work, hands the lawyer the bill.

Lawyer: That's outrageous! I'm a lawyer and that's more than I charge!

Plumber: That's what I used to say when I was a lawyer.

[LynahFan]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

Which not many do because they take away classes in school that teach that stuff. And then steer kids away from learning those skills because when a kid is 13 it's "but you need to go to college!"

This doesn't make any sense. If a kid decides not to learn a trade at 13, they've missed their one and only shot and can never take it up again later? Do vocational high school programs really produce "union-ready" talent? I suspect most kids who choose that route at 13 still have a lot of learning to do after high school graduation.

[BassAle]

I'll take a break from ignoring you:

The world needs ditch-diggers too, to borrow from Caddyshack. HVAC, warehousing, plumbing, etc...there's money there. No pretty jobs, but that's why they pay so well. Hell, garbagemen make some decent dough. Why? Who the heck wants to do it? If one can't get a decent paying white-collar job, then swallow your pride (for lack of a better term) and take up blue-collar. It's still an honorable profession. I take great pride in my work, and to any hater who wants to look down their nose, F you.

We may have different definitions of "decent dough"
http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/garbage-collector/salary

Considering what they deal with garbage collectors aren't that well paid

I do think its a shame more people aren't encouraged to get into trades. Plumbing, electrical, masonry, etc. those are decent middle class jobs and are a good fit for some people that feel they need to go to college. Maybe then I wouldn't have to pay so much for skilled workers.

I had some masonry work done by a very skilled mason. He grew up helping his father, who was a successful mason. He had gone to school for engineering for a few years before he decided he really wanted to continue the family business. Wishes he hadn't spent so much on school before he decided that.

[Jimjamesak]

This doesn't make any sense. If a kid decides not to learn a trade at 13, they've missed their one and only shot and can never take it up again later? Do vocational high school programs really produce "union-ready" talent? I suspect most kids who choose that route at 13 still have a lot of learning to do after high school graduation.

No the issue is kids aren't even given a chance to try these things. Instead it's constantly pressed into kids from 6th-7th grade that "they need to go college. You need to start thinking about where you want to go. You're not successful if you don't go to college." Not everybody needs to go to college and there's nothing wrong with trying to be a welder or a plumber or a laborer etc. Quit telling kids to go into thousands of dollars of debt for something they don't want.

[Kepler]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

No the issue is kids aren't even given a chance to try these things. Instead it's constantly pressed into kids from 6th-7th grade that "they need to go college. You need to start thinking about where you want to go. You're not successful if you don't go to college." Not everybody needs to go to college and there's nothing wrong with trying to be a welder or a plumber or a laborer etc. Quit telling kids to go into thousands of dollars of debt for something they don't want.

I agree with this. Two things are going on. First, "working class" jobs are low status in an age where everything from the university system to TV advertising to government policy is pitched to the upper middle class and above. Skilled working class positions have been made invisible because they don't fit the consumerist narrative. Second, voc tracks in high school have become a dumping ground for the dumb kids and the problem kids. The PM of my program is a salt-of-the-Earth guy who came up through the ranks of auto repair, electrician, construction, etc. He's easily as bright as the median Ivy student I've met. I was talking to him about HS and he was saying how his guidance counselor was so concerned he wanted to be in metal shop and the auto bay that she called a meeting with his parents to discuss it. I said something on the order of "yeah, it was that way in my school too -- those guys got a bad rap for being stupid," and he interrupted me and said, "oh no, they ARE stupid. All my classmates were the stoners and the dregs who should have been expelled. The reason I got so much out of it was I was the only one who actually cared and wanted to work."

I hate to say that everything's about class, but... everything's about class. 50 years ago guys who went into working class jobs and worked their way to the top were just as respected as doctors or lawyers. Now they're treated like crap. Just like teachers or cops or soldiers, because they don't fit the Brave New World meritocratic conveyor belt they've been marginalized.

[The Rube]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

My brother would agree with you, Kepler. Shop class/etc was where the slackers or non-booksmart people went or got stuck with. My brother is self-admittedly not a brainiac when it comes to what the world considers "intelligence," but he found that he was good with fixing vehicles. Nowadays, what an auto-mechanic has to know is insane, with all the technology and different types of vehicles out there.

[Jimjamesak]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

It's funny that you say good working class jobs don't fit the consumerist narrative, and that's true, and yet it's the people that are in the good working class jobs that are the best consumers. Because they make a decent wage, don't have much debt, and likely have good benefits they have more money to spend on toys. And likely have more time off to go on trips.

[The Rube]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

It's funny that you say good working class jobs don't fit the consumerist narrative, and that's true, and yet it's the people that are in the good working class jobs that are the best consumers. Because they make a decent wage, don't have much debt, and likely have good benefits they have more money to spend on toys. And likely have more time off to go on trips.

Yep. No debt here, 5 weeks vacation every year (IIRC, I'll get bumped up to 6 weeks in 2016, since I'll have been with my company for 15 years). Good benefits, and heckuva retirement plan.

There is also the stereotype that blue collar workers are generally more loyal to their company, and change jobs less often, but that could be a dated concept, even for them.

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

I guess I've seen just as many tradesmen move to another company than white collar workers.

[The Rube]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

I guess I've seen just as many tradesmen move to another company than white collar workers.

I figured it might be dated. It's a shame. Unless I get royally screwed over, I highly doubt I'll switch jobs. That means when it comes to retire, I'll have over 35 years with one company, possibly closer to 40.

[Slap Shot]

And all of those things are all well and good except if you have dependents. Start throwing in things like extra food and daycare and suddenly you're working two jobs just to keep up, something that is either not an option or basically leaves a kid without their parents.

When I lost what I thought was my career job 11 years ago I took a part time job with UPS a year later (I sold insurance in between and hated every minute of it). 6 months later I was promoted to part-time management and at the same time took a second job as a bill collector of all things. Within one year I was promoted there as well.

I did that for six years working 65 hours per week, with a wife and two kids. I sacrificed a little bit of sleep but still managed to spend quality time with my family. Four years ago I received a promotion that allowed me to drop UPS completely. I'm now in SE Asia with an opportunity for a position that will afford me early retirement. No masters, no PHD, and I paid for college out of pocket.

One size doesn't fit all I get that, and income disparity in this country is sickening and a real problem that needs to be dealt with, but let's not blend the issues together.

[The Rube]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

When I lost what I thought was my career job 11 years ago I took a part time job with UPS a year later (I sold insurance in between and hated every minute of it). 6 months later I was promoted to part-time management and at the same time took a second job as a bill collector of all things. Within one year I was promoted there as well.

I did that for six years working 65 hours per week, with a wife and two kids. I sacrificed a little bit of sleep but still managed to spend quality time with my family. Four years ago I received a promotion that allowed me to drop UPS completely. I'm now in SE Asia with an opportunity for a position that will afford me early retirement. No masters, no PHD, and I paid for college out of pocket.

One size doesn't fit all I get that, and income disparity in this country is sickening and a real problem that needs to be dealt with, but let's not blend the issues together.

Agreed. Heck, I just about was in a situation this year where I would end up somehow finding a way to support 4 kids, while my (now ex) woman finished her nursing school and later on found a job in that field. I would have probably had to pick up a side job until we became dual-income. But, I'd have done it.

[Kepler]

Re: Riots and Racists and Looting...OH MY!!!

It's funny that you say good working class jobs don't fit the consumerist narrative, and that's true, and yet it's the people that are in the good working class jobs that are the best consumers. Because they make a decent wage, don't have much debt, and likely have good benefits they have more money to spend on toys. And likely have more time off to go on trips.

When my wife and I took a cruise last year, the people we met were essentially wise guys from Jersey and Staten Island -- sanitation, construction, plumbing. They were awesome -- several of the older guys were autodidacts like my dad who could talk about Rousseau or how to fix a transmission...

... and all of their kids were just out of college with crippling debts, crap wage entry desk jobs, and no interest in bettering themselves intellectually because they had a degree, which they mistook for an education.

It was like seeing the last 40 years of American social history in one diorama.