Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

They know where their bread is buttered. Adelson barks "jump!" and they ask "how high"?

Looks like there's a chance the Israelies might wake up and boot Bibi. I'm not sure whether the ZU is much better, but there won't be any chance at a peace accord with that cut rate Dick Cheney still running things.

Yeah, well, he may get booted he may not. What I don't appreciate is that the Speaker of the House thinks he can run US foreign policy himself and do it by shipping the job overseas.

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

It doesn't matter who is in power, Israel will do whatever it feels is necessary to defend itself. That doesn't mean the US is required to support the actions Israel takes, or isn't obligated to try and stop them from doing things that are drastic and disruptive to the affairs of the entire planet.

[FreshFish]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

I saw this article in The Atlantic, which sounds similar to the article you may be referencing. It's an important angle that this isn't just some crazy group of fanatics who don't have plans, goals, etc. While I don't agree with everything in the article, it was quite an interesting read and stuff like setting up the caliph was the kind of stuff that westerners don't seem to generally understand, but that seems to be very significant to the overall equation.

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/...-wants/384980/

Yes, thank you, that is exactly the one. It seems there is a reluctance in some circles to acknowledge that ISIS says what it believes and believes what it says.

[FreshFish]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Don't dodge the question. Beyond acknowledging what their objectives are, do you have any specific ideas for dealing with ISIS? How are we supposed to know that your plan is any different or better than Obama's?

"At this point, what difference does it make?"

What are your ideas, since you seem predisposed in advance to dismiss anything I might say, merely because I am the one saying it.

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

It doesn't matter who is in power, Israel will do whatever it feels is necessary to defend itself.

Of course they will. The whole problem with Likud is their worldview puts Israel in greater danger. The non-insane portion of the Israeli public recognizes this, and in fact the only way Likud can even gin up a coalition these days is to invite their homegrown equivalent of Hamas into their government. Israeli Jews at the moment are about 40% sane, 30% politically insane, and 30% religiously insane. God knows what the Israeli Muslims are -- hiding in the attic, I guess. Israeli Jews are now where white male Americans were a decade ago -- there is a good portion who have functioning brain cells, but as a whole the demographic is still tipping Neanderthal.

Israel is going to change. Even if their orthodox loons have 12 kids each, the only way they can keep this Dubyamulka coalition in power is to turn the country into an actual fascist regime, and that's not appealing to a westernized, educated Israeli public. You can only go full stupid when you have enormous reserves of herpa-derps, and in Israel even the politically crazy are educated and will stop short of that.

[Priceless]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

"At this point, what difference does it make?"

What are your ideas, since you seem predisposed in advance to dismiss anything I might say, merely because I am the one saying it.

This message brought to you by Dodge.

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

"At this point, what difference does it make?"

What are your ideas, since you seem predisposed in advance to dismiss anything I might say, merely because I am the one saying it.

Oh, FFS. I have watched you play this game with other posters here, so I don't know why I am bothering at this point.

I asked you what your ideas for dealing with ISIS were. You ignored my question and instead selectively quoted my posts to express your opinion, twice, that Obama's actions weren't good enough. If you don't think Obama's plan is good enough, that's fine - it's your opinion. What I asked you is, what would you do differently to address the ISIS problem? Surprising as it may sound, I think I have made it fairly obvious over the past couple of years that I am not an Obama shill, so I might actually agree with you.

[Bob Gray]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Of course they will. The whole problem with Likud is their worldview puts Israel in greater danger. The non-insane portion of the Israeli public recognizes this, and in fact the only way Likud can even gin up a coalition these days is to invite their homegrown equivalent of Hamas into their government. Israeli Jews at the moment are about 40% sane, 30% politically insane, and 30% religiously insane. God knows what the Israeli Muslims are -- hiding in the attic, I guess. Israeli Jews are now where white male Americans were a decade ago -- there is a good portion who have functioning brain cells, but as a whole the demographic is still tipping Neanderthal.

Israel is going to change. Even if their orthodox loons have 12 kids each, the only way they can keep this Dubyamulka coalition in power is to turn the country into an actual fascist regime, and that's not appealing to a westernized, educated Israeli public. You can only go full stupid when you have enormous reserves of herpa-derps, and in Israel even the politically crazy are educated and will stop short of that.

Likud insane? If you believe that, how do you view the people who run things across the Muslim world in the Middle East? They are certainly a lot further out there in many (if not most) cases than Likud!

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Likud insane? If you believe that, how do you view the people who run things across the Muslim world in the Middle East? They are certainly a lot further out there in many (if not most) cases than Likud!

How is one related to the other?

Insane to me is deliberately believing and doing stuff that will actually hurt you in the end, and, when presented with all the reasons this is so, continuing to do it. By that test, the fundy religious movements around the Middle East are all insane. I'm not sure the actual regimes are -- are the Saudis, for example, insane, or are they just sociopathic? I guess it depends on why they keep funneling all that money to Wahhabists. Are they exporting their crazies and distracting their people from their authoritarian rule, or do they rally believe that crap about the Invisible Imam?

But Likud believes all their stuff -- they're the real thing. They are Dick Cheney's morals combined with Ollie North's pathetic tough guy act. I could easily imagine Likud staging a coup if they were removed from office to avoid an existential threat to Israel. Even the GOP won't go there.

[FreshFish]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

I asked you what your ideas for dealing with ISIS were.

despite your refusal to offer any useful ideas at all, here are mine.

1) Tell the truth. ISIS is run by devout Islamists who believe in a variant of Islam that does not allow any other belief to exist other than theirs. STOP opining on what "is" or "is not" Islam, that is a debate for Muslims to settle among themselves. If you are not a Muslim, what authority do you have to opine anything other than to accept their words at face value?
2) That being said, provide encouragement and support to Muslims who have spoken out clearly against the ISIS strain of Islam (e.g., Egypt's General al-Sisi).
3) form a four-pronged international coalition. It will take "boots on the ground" and a long, sustained campaign, and it will take money, and it will take weapons and arms.
-- Japan has a great reason to act against ISIS, ask them to put up substantial funds and technical support
-- Jordan has a great reason to act against ISIS, provide them with meaningful weapons and effective air support
-- Kurds have a great reason to act against ISIS, provide them with meaningful weapons and effective air support
-- Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iraq have great reasons to act, encourage them to provide logistical and financial support
4) US "boots on the ground" would be counter-productive, as well as politically unpopular: but Special Forces, air support, supplying weapons and intel would be valuable
5) Europe is in similar position to US, get their financial support, Special Forces, weapons supply and intel as well.
6) choke off ISIS' money flows: step up international efforts to find and confiscate their funds
7) cut off ISIS supply lines, disrupt their ability to feed their troops and supply them with weapons
8) provide protection and support for Muslim leaders who speak out against ISIS, help them withstand intimidation with beefed-up security
9) stop giving Iran cover under which they can build all the parts of a nuclear weapon as long as they don't assemble them. That is just nonsense. Iran is happy to sponsor groups like ISIS, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc., we need to put pressure on them, not cave to them as we've been doing.
10) commit for the long run. a few months of token bombing runs are not going to cut it. It will take a long time and sustained hard work.
11) get the Chinese on board: who will they have as trading partners if ISIS is successful? they too will benefit from a world without strife.


The people most directly affected and most at risk should be in the front lines, but only the US has the power and the prestige to pull them all together in a coordinated and sustained manner.

and most important of all, do not say one thing and then do another.

[FreshFish]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

This message brought to you by Dodge.

thank you Mr. Pott!
signed, Mr. Kettle.

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

despite your refusal to offer any useful ideas at all, here are mine.

1) Tell the truth. ISIS is run by devout Islamists who believe in a variant of Islam that does not allow any other belief to exist other than theirs. STOP opining on what "is" or "is not" Islam, that is a debate for Muslims to settle among themselves. If you are not a Muslim, what authority do you have to opine anything other than to accept their words at face value?
2) That being said, provide encouragement and support to Muslims who have spoken out clearly against the ISIS strain of Islam (e.g., Egypt's General al-Sisi).
3) form a four-pronged international coalition. It will take "boots on the ground" and a long, sustained campaign, and it will take money, and it will take weapons and arms.
-- Japan has a great reason to act against ISIS, ask them to put up substantial funds and technical support
-- Jordan has a great reason to act against ISIS, provide them with meaningful weapons and effective air support
-- Kurds have a great reason to act against ISIS, provide them with meaningful weapons and effective air support
-- Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iraq have great reasons to act, encourage them to provide logistical and financial support
4) US "boots on the ground" would be counter-productive, as well as politically unpopular: but Special Forces, air support, supplying weapons and intel would be valuable
5) Europe is in similar position to US, get their financial support, Special Forces, weapons supply and intel as well.
6) choke off ISIS' money flows: step up international efforts to find and confiscate their funds
7) cut off ISIS supply lines, disrupt their ability to feed their troops and supply them with weapons
8) provide protection and support for Muslim leaders who speak out against ISIS, help them withstand intimidation with beefed-up security
9) stop giving Iran cover under which they can build all the parts of a nuclear weapon as long as they don't assemble them. That is just nonsense. Iran is happy to sponsor groups like ISIS, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc., we need to put pressure on them, not cave to them as we've been doing.
10) commit for the long run. a few months of token bombing runs are not going to cut it. It will take a long time and sustained hard work.
11) get the Chinese on board: who will they have as trading partners if ISIS is successful? they too will benefit from a world without strife.


The people most directly affected and most at risk should be in the front lines, but only the US has the power and the prestige to pull them all together in a coordinated and sustained manner.

and most important of all, do not say one thing and then do another.

Whew! It was like pulling teeth, but I finally got an honest answer that wasn't just criticism of the current POTUS.

I agree with 1 and 2, so long as "radical Islam" is distinguished from the peaceful majority. I feel that #3/4/5 would be a repeat of the 2004 Iraq invasion - pump trillions into a war effort, leave a vacuum for an even-worse power to fill. You aren't going to get Europe to contribute after the wasteful disaster that was Iraq. #6 and 7 brings up a good point - how is ISIS being funded and supplied? If they are smart, I doubt it's a centralized source. If that's the case, good luck cutting them off, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. #8 is probably a waste of money - those guys are going to get whacked anyway, and even if they don't, they likely have their own political agendas in a post-ISIS world (see: leave a vacuum for an even-worse power to fill). #9 - we still have de facto MAD. If Iran assembles and fires one nuke, they will be turned into plate glass within a few hours. #11 - If I were China, I'd wonder why I should get involved. I'd probably be content to remain neutral and wait for a winner.

[St. Clown]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

#11 - If I were China, I'd wonder why I should get involved. I'd probably be content to remain neutral and wait for a winner.

I don't think they're content, but they would be willing to play the waiting game. Should the Chinese think that ISIS becomes a viable threat to China, then they'll take action, otherwise they'll let everyone else spend their national treasures.

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

I don't think they're content, but they would be willing to play the waiting game. Should the Chinese think that ISIS becomes a viable threat to China, then they'll take action, otherwise they'll let everyone else spend their national treasures.

Exactly

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

Calling it radical Islam accomplishes NOTHING.