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Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

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  • Timothy A
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

    http://www.theatlantic.com/features/...-wants/384980/

    Very interesting read....I have to digest it some more before I can comment.

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  • Kepler
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

    Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
    But, such folks are not generally influential or in power in the Muslim world
    I think some in power are quite rational and are just using Wahhabism or other radical ideologies to deflect criticism towards an "other." Israel was Allah's gift to totalitarian Arab regimes, for instance.

    I disagree with you that having an all-consuming belief system is not inherently dangerous. If a person has only one* yardstick that he uses to measure everything, whether it's religion, Marxism, the free market, or furry videos, he's going to be making a lot of really bad judgments and poor decisions.

    * Cornell hockey is of course an exception
    Last edited by Kepler; 02-18-2015, 12:18 PM.

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  • Bob Gray
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

    Originally posted by Kepler View Post
    I'm saying they should be viewed as the same qualitatively.

    I don't advocate treating them the same; I'm not in favor of drone striking Coeur d'Alene. I'm with Bill Maher that it's ridiculous to pretend that the vast majority of terrorist acts in today's world are not from Muslim groups. But going from that to "Islam is a religion of violence" would be like concluding from the 16th century that "Christianity is a religion of violence." What history has shown us is that when religion is an all-consuming ideology it can be an effective carrier wave for other kinds of crazy, given the right circumstances. The problem that faces us today is Islam is all-consuming in many places, and the circumstances exist in many of those places.

    We should be trying to figure how to prevent people from becoming fundamentalist -- religiosity : fundamentalism :: alcohol consumption : alcoholism -- or at the very least what the circumstances are (economic? political?) that cause fundamentalists to become violent.
    I've never trotted out a Islam is a religion of violence statement. Such broad sweeps are rarely accurate or useful, so let's put that bugaboo to bed. To repeat again, there certainly are many Muslim folks who generally speaking want nothing more than to go to work, provide for their family, and live in peace (though even a lot of these folks have crazy views on Israel, 9/11, etc. if polls over the years are at all accurate). But, such folks are not generally influential or in power in the Muslim world, so the face of Islam that usually shows forth in international affairs is violent to varying extents in a variety of ways, toward non-believing infidels, Christians, other branches of Islam (Sunni vs. Shiite, etc.), women, children, gays, etc.

    Having beliefs that are all-consuming isn't necessarily a road to any sort of problems for society. Jesus was pretty all-consuming in doing his Father's will. Monks living in caves were pretty consumed by their beliefs and haven't generally messed society up. And a lot of folks quietly practice their beliefs in ways where their beliefs inform and direct their lives and they provide great benefits to society. Look at Kayla Mueller who was recently killed while in ISIS hands.
    Last edited by Bob Gray; 02-18-2015, 11:57 AM.

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  • Kepler
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

    I'm saying they should be viewed as the same qualitatively.

    I don't advocate treating them the same; I'm not in favor of drone striking Coeur d'Alene. I'm with Bill Maher that it's ridiculous to pretend that the vast majority of terrorist acts in today's world are not from Muslim groups. But going from that to "Islam is a religion of violence" would be like concluding from the 16th century that "Christianity is a religion of violence." What history has shown us is that when religion is an all-consuming ideology it can be an effective carrier wave for other kinds of crazy, given the right circumstances. The problem that faces us today is Islam is all-consuming in many places, and the circumstances exist in many of those places.

    We should be trying to figure how to prevent people from becoming fundamentalist -- religiosity : fundamentalism :: alcohol consumption : alcoholism -- or at the very least what the circumstances are (economic? political?) that cause fundamentalists to become violent.

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  • Bob Gray
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

    Originally posted by Kepler View Post
    That explains why you misread my post. CI is an umbrella term for radical right groups that organize around crazy misreadings of Christian doctrine (exactly analogous to groups like AQ and IS). The guys who send abortion clinics Postcards from Jesus are typically CI. Often they are white power, but they do it in a 6-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon way: they're not superior because they're white, they're superior because God chose them and the sign that God chose them is... you guessed it. But in any case their organizing principle is Christ.

    It would be both dumb and ineffective to call these groups out for being "Christian," even though they self-ID as Christian in no uncertain terms. Nor would it make sense to call on every sane Christian to explicitly repudiate these groups -- you for example don't even appear to know they exist. But by the logic the herpa-derps and their mouthpieces apply to Islam, that would somehow make you an accessory to their actions, and maybe even tacitly a fellow traveler. Rather, we should deal with the group as CRAZY, because that's what's deadly about them.

    Is that more clear?
    Yes. I am aware of some groups out there that are supremacist and claim some connection to Christianity, but hadn't heard this particular term. But it sounds like it applies to a tiny fringe, not multiple groups that have large followings like the Muslim groups I mention, so the comparison still falls apart. If Christian Identity groups had large influence or controlled governments across western civilization (as cited Muslim groups do in the Muslim world), then the comparison would at least have some legs. At what point does a given group within a larger group (such as ISIS within Islam or Christian Identity within Christianity) reasonably start to have an influence on how the larger group is viewed? You say both cases should be viewed the same, even given the drastically different circumstances I note. I say the drastically different circumstances influence how much those groups influence how the larger group may be viewed.

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  • Kepler
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

    Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
    I'm not sure what you're talking about when you reference The Christian Identity movement.
    That explains why you misread my post. CI is an umbrella term for radical right groups that organize around crazy misreadings of Christian doctrine (exactly analogous to groups like AQ and IS). The guys who send abortion clinics Postcards from Jesus are typically CI. Often they are white power, but they do it in a 6-degrees-of-Kevin-Bacon way: they're not superior because they're white, they're superior because God chose them and the sign that God chose them is... you guessed it. But in any case their organizing principle is Christ.

    It would be both dumb and ineffective to call these groups out for being "Christian," even though they self-ID as Christian in no uncertain terms. Nor would it make sense to call on every sane Christian to explicitly repudiate these groups -- you for example don't even appear to know they exist. But by the logic the herpa-derps and their mouthpieces apply to Islam, that would somehow make you an accessory to their actions, and maybe even tacitly a fellow traveler. Rather, we should deal with the group as CRAZY, because that's what's deadly about them.

    Is that more clear?
    Last edited by Kepler; 02-18-2015, 10:27 AM.

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  • Bob Gray
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

    Originally posted by Kepler View Post
    You are proving my whole point, Bob. Please go back and read my post again, because I'm pretty sure you just breezed over the meaning. Harping on the ISLAM part of Islamic terrorism makes as little sense as harping on the CHRISTIAN part of the Christian Identity movement. It's not only ignorant, it's also a political mistake because it alienates the 99% of the faithful who aren't insane.

    'Murica thinks all Muslims are killers because all 'Murica ever sees about Muslims is terrorism news. This is exactly like the Muslim man on the street who is yelling death to America because all he sees of America is our bombs ripping his kid's limbs off. Joe Six Pack and Ahmed, uh, I dunno, Rosewater and Dates (?) are the same dude.
    You're wrong on several accounts. White supremacy, though some would claim a tie to Christianity of some sort, it not a central feature of most such groups. Islam is "the" central feature of ISIS. Beyond that, the comparison will have a little less tenuous substance if the white supremacists had managed to take over part of America and nobody had been able to push them out to date. The success of ISIS, the Taliban, AQ, the clerics in Iran, the popularity of Wahhabism, etc. make your 1 percent claim seem pretty fanciful. As do repeated polls that show large slices if Islam want Israel destroyed, think 9/11 was an Israeli plot, and on and on. That said, there certainly are many Muslim people that just want to live their daily lives and not blow up people, etc. Those people unfortunately aren't numerous enough or active enough or powerful enough or whatever to have much influence on governments, policies, etc. that come forth from the Muslim world. Your comparison is hopelessly tenuous, and that's given you the benefit of the doubt.

    I'm not sure what you're talking about when you reference The Christian Identity movement. Is that another of these make believe groups that scare you in your dreams?

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  • Kepler
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

    Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
    So white supremacists = Christianity. It just keeps getting deeper around here by the day.
    You are proving my whole point, Bob. Please go back and read my post again, because I'm pretty sure you just breezed over the meaning. Harping on the ISLAM part of Islamic terrorism makes as little sense as harping on the CHRISTIAN part of the Christian Identity movement. It's not only ignorant, it's also a political mistake because it alienates the 99% of the faithful who aren't insane.

    'Murica thinks all Muslims are killers because all 'Murica ever sees about Muslims is terrorism news. This is exactly like the Muslim man on the street who is yelling death to America because all he sees of America is our bombs ripping his kid's limbs off. Joe Six Pack and Ahmed, uh, I dunno, Rosewater and Dates (?) are the same dude.

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  • Bob Gray
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

    So white supremacists = Christianity. It just keeps getting deeper around here by the day.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kepler
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

    Originally posted by TimP View Post
    Is there much difference between the "Christian" part and the "Crazy" part? Look at what happened in Chapel Hill with that right-wing nutjob killing the three Muslim doctors and the Muslim student at University of Texas who was assaulted in a religiously-motivated incident. Where are the Christian leaders proclaiming their support for Muslims?
    Yes, there's a big difference. Even if you want to grant that crazy religion x'ers are religion x (and the rest of religion x rejects that), you make no progress and just show ignorance if you highlight religion x. 23% of the population of planet Earth is Muslim. Muslim terrorists kill mostly Muslims in Muslim countries. So, if we want to fight the terrorists, we had better get over ourselves and our herpa-derp "the problem is Islam." If Buddhists offered help with our white supremacists we wouldn't care for it much if they insisted that first we "admit" the "problem is Christianity" and demand that "Christian leaders" abjure them as if by not doing so they were showing support. The Christian majority would clutch their Bibles and even the grown-ups would dismiss them as clueless about where to put the emphasis and what that implies about their analysis and planning.

    Like most things, this comes down to the mediocre third writing a narrative to appeal to the bigotries of dumbest third. It's a marketing and profitability problem, not anything real.
    Last edited by Kepler; 02-17-2015, 10:24 PM.

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  • joecct
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

    Originally posted by Handyman View Post
    Yeah they won't. You probably think Ebola is gonna get you too dont ya...
    A rising tide kills us all!

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  • Handyman
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

    Originally posted by solovsfett View Post
    absolutely terrifying stuff: http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...rom-libya.html

    If no-one (read: U.S., UK, Germany, Australia) stands up to ISIS militarily (meaning boots on the ground, not video game pilots) they'll carve their way up to France or Spain within 2 years.
    Yeah they won't. You probably think Ebola is gonna get you too dont ya...

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Pio
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

    Originally posted by TimP View Post
    Is there much difference between the "Christian" part and the "Crazy" part? Look at what happened in Chapel Hill with that right-wing nutjob killing the three Muslim doctors and the Muslim student at University of Texas who was assaulted in a religiously-motivated incident. Where are the Christian leaders proclaiming their support for Muslims?
    The nut job at UNC is not right wing. Not a fundie. He's a fan of Rachel Maddow. But don't let these inconvenient facts deter you from expressing your bigotry.
    Last edited by Old Pio; 02-17-2015, 08:54 PM.

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  • TimP
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

    Is there much difference between the "Christian" part and the "Crazy" part? Look at what happened in Chapel Hill with that right-wing nutjob killing the three Muslim doctors and the Muslim student at University of Texas who was assaulted in a religiously-motivated incident. Where are the Christian leaders proclaiming their support for Muslims?

    Leave a comment:


  • Kepler
    replied
    Re: Global War on Terror Version 6 - Perpetual Motion Machine

    Originally posted by FlagDUDE08 View Post
    Do those morons even know what the first I in ISIS stands for? http://nypost.com/2015/02/17/islamic...rorism-summit/
    If you want to isolate Islamic crazies from wider Islamic world, the way to do it is to concentrate on the crazy part (which is, after all, the problem). Compare the Neo-Nazi "Christian Identity" movement. Ya think it would be smart to concentrate on the "Christian" part?

    The NY Post is tub-thumping for idiots. You're not an idiot; you shouldn't fall for it.

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