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  • #76
    Re: Chess

    Originally posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    Actually, I'd argue that chess has larger difference in gender participation over the others. The others don't have as much of a history of a cultural bias towards males as chess (although the others do have it). Probably a similar problem with science research.
    I know basically nothing about gamer culture, but I was under the impression it was all about Koreans, boys, pimples, and Korean boys with pimples.
    Cornell University
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    • #77
      Re: Chess

      Originally posted by Kepler View Post
      I'd ascribe all of those to even larger gender differences in participation.

      The really interesting difference is in top tier science jobs. The percentage of female participation has been growing steadily for decades, but the very top positions and awards are still almost exclusively male. That may be latency (at the time when the people in those top slots were just entering the field there was still an enormous gender difference) or there may be career interruption effects from children, although the latter shouldn't affect Northern European cultures that don't have the enormous difference in gender norms that we do.
      Bigotry has a long half-life. When my wife was at CERN in 2012 (20-freaking-12), the men in her group (primarily Germans and Italians) just assumed that she would need to leave work earlier than everyone else (i.e. men and single women) since she was married and would therefore need to get home to cook dinner for me (her working-at-home husband). It never occurred to them that as an enlightened American male, I might actually be able to make my own sandwich.

      Anyone who thinks those sort of attitudes don't *still* affect all kinds of decisions, from who sits in which cubicle to who gets to lead the team, is completely blind.
      If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

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      • #78
        Re: Chess

        Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
        Bigotry has a long half-life. When my wife was at CERN in 2012 (20-freaking-12), the men in her group (primarily Germans and Italians) just assumed that she would need to leave work earlier than everyone else (i.e. men and single women) since she was married and would therefore need to get home to cook dinner for me (her working-at-home husband). It never occurred to them that as an enlightened American male, I might actually be able to make my own sandwich.
        Maybe they assumed that as an American you were like the rockheads they see on American TV.

        I'm not surprised by the Italians -- they're second only to Israelis in the First World Sexist HOF. But the Germans dismay me -- I really thought they were like Scandinavians and had left all that kinder küche kirche garbage back with the Nazis and Republicans where it belongs.
        Cornell University
        National Champion 1967, 1970
        ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
        Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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        • #79
          Re: Chess

          Long story short as I'm unfortunately short on time, but Kep's study falls in line with what I was able to dig up. Still a bit surprised that there haven't been a handful of notable outliers, though Judit Polgar did make it to #8 world ranking.

          Anyway, Caruana and Giri played to a rather intriguing draw yesterday. Giri, with white, held a solid advantage for most of it but Caruana never cracked and played back to even. Very interesting game to peruse move by move on the Tata site. Meanwhile, Carlsen was steamrolled after numerous blunders and now sits near the bottom of the standings. Lot of talk out there about Carlsen already being over the hill, but I won't go there quite yet considering how young he is and how many pots his fingers are currently in. Just way too early, though he's already in a deep hole in this tourney.

          I haven't mentioned Ivanchuk yet, but if the standings hold close to what they are at the moment I'm quite interested to see what he can muster against Caruana. He's hit or miss but when he's on he's really good.
          I wish I am able to live long enough to do all the things I was attributed to.

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          • #80
            Re: Chess

            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
            Maybe they assumed that as an American you were like the rockheads they see on American TV.

            I'm not surprised by the Italians -- they're second only to Israelis in the First World Sexist HOF. But the Germans dismay me -- I really thought they were like Scandinavians and had left all that kinder küche kirche garbage back with the Nazis and Republicans where it belongs.
            Yeah, it was surprising to me, too. It may also be important to distinguish between Bavaria (Germany's Texas) and the Nordlanders. In the US, I was used to roughly 15% female engineers, but when I worked at Dornier (in Munich) there was one female engineer out of 200 in the section - and she was a new college grad.

            The difference is that harassment of women in the US tends to be more overtly sexual (e.g. construction workers' whistles and quid-pro-quo "arrangements") whereas in Europe it is insidiously based around gender roles instead. My wife even received an extra monthly "stipend" in her paycheck because she was married - a rule that was put in place generations ago to compensate men for the trouble of supporting that burdonsome wife at home. Their idea of moving toward gender equality was not to get rid of the stipends, but simply to offer it to married people of both genders.

            Edit: also, it wasn't so much that they assumed she would *want* to leave work early to make dinner - it was that they honestly felt that she OUGHT to leave work early and tsk-tsked the fact that she routinely chose not to.
            Last edited by LynahFan; 01-13-2015, 08:10 PM.
            If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Kepler View Post
              I know basically nothing about gamer culture, but I was under the impression it was all about Koreans, boys, pimples, and Korean boys with pimples.
              Games like Starcraft and League of Legends are dominated by Koreans (the current world champion for LoL is, not a joke, Samsung Galaxy White) although they have large followings in N. America, Europe, and China as well. A lot of top teams and players have sponsorships and winnings (and earnings from online streaming channels) at a level to make them full-time professionals. Definitely not boys with pimples.
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              • #82
                Re: Chess

                Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
                Yeah, it was surprising to me, too. It may also be important to distinguish between Bavaria (Germany's Texas) and the Nordlanders. In the US, I was used to roughly 15% female engineers, but when I worked at Dornier (in Munich) there was one female engineer out of 200 in the section - and she was a new college grad.

                The difference is that harassment of women in the US tends to be more overtly sexual (e.g. construction workers' whistles and quid-pro-quo "arrangements") whereas in Europe it is insidiously based around gender roles instead. My wife even received an extra monthly "stipend" in her paycheck because she was married - a rule that was put in place generations ago to compensate men for the trouble of supporting that burdonsome wife at home. Their idea of moving toward gender equality was not to get rid of the stipends, but simply to offer it to married people of both genders.

                Edit: also, it wasn't so much that they assumed she would *want* to leave work early to make dinner - it was that they honestly felt that she OUGHT to leave work early and tsk-tsked the fact that she routinely chose not to.
                Bavaria is also heavily Catholic, which subtracts 500 years from women's rights. I suspect the Poles suck too for that reason. There are knuckledraggers the world over, but I really thought the other peoples around the Baltic not only had figured it out, but had figured it out long before the Anglosphere.
                Cornell University
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                ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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                • #83
                  Re: Chess

                  Originally posted by Jimjamesak View Post
                  Definitely not boys with pimples.
                  Like I said, what little I know comes from sites like io9, which tend to concentrate on the sci-fi, fantasy games. I do know that in Korea they can fill soccer stadiums for big events and that the money is becoming competitive with professional athletics.
                  Cornell University
                  National Champion 1967, 1970
                  ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                  Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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                  • #84
                    Re: Chess

                    Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                    Bavaria is also heavily Catholic, which subtracts 500 years from women's rights. I suspect the Poles suck too for that reason. There are knuckledraggers the world over, but I really thought the other peoples around the Baltic not only had figured it out, but had figured it out long before the Anglosphere.
                    What are you defining as "around the Baltic"? Things vary quite a bit depending on how big of a range you're looking at, especially if you start going inland to the S/SE.
                    I wish I am able to live long enough to do all the things I was attributed to.

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                    • #85
                      Re: Chess

                      Originally posted by XYZ View Post
                      What are you defining as "around the Baltic"? Things vary quite a bit depending on how big of a range you're looking at, especially if you start going inland to the S/SE.
                      I was thinking of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland. I knocked out Poland because religion, and Russia because Russia.
                      Cornell University
                      National Champion 1967, 1970
                      ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
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                      • #86
                        Re: Chess

                        Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                        I was thinking of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland. I knocked out Poland because religion, and Russia because Russia.
                        Ok, so the real Baltics. No real purpose for asking aside from curiosity. I'm not overly familiar with the Scandinavian nations + Finland, but am moreso with the rest. Generally speaking, it seems the father one wanders south from Estonia and wraps through the old Eastern Bloc states the worse it gets. Right in line with Lynah's observations of a different region: it has little to do with overt sexual overtones but far more to do with applied gender roles. In some cases it gets pretty ridiculous per what some of us are used to.

                        So no real argument. Just wondered what you considered the Baltics since some (mistakenly) consider every former Soviet republic a Baltic and things vary wildly depending on where you are. Romania is a real gem .
                        Last edited by XYZ; 01-15-2015, 12:30 AM.
                        I wish I am able to live long enough to do all the things I was attributed to.

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                        • #87
                          Re: Chess

                          Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
                          Yeah, it was surprising to me, too. It may also be important to distinguish between Bavaria (Germany's Texas) and the Nordlanders. In the US, I was used to roughly 15% female engineers, but when I worked at Dornier (in Munich) there was one female engineer out of 200 in the section - and she was a new college grad.

                          The difference is that harassment of women in the US tends to be more overtly sexual (e.g. construction workers' whistles and quid-pro-quo "arrangements") whereas in Europe it is insidiously based around gender roles instead. My wife even received an extra monthly "stipend" in her paycheck because she was married - a rule that was put in place generations ago to compensate men for the trouble of supporting that burdonsome wife at home. Their idea of moving toward gender equality was not to get rid of the stipends, but simply to offer it to married people of both genders.
                          What you call as European harassment is an outcome of much more distinct gender roles in Europe. I've always thought of women and men being pretty much interchangeable regarding most societal norms. But many women prefer to have a distinct gender role. And its more pronounced in Europe. They see it as a natural thing to have children and raise a family rather than be a breadwinner like often women in the US. Ultimately, the outcome of this can't but naturally show up in the workplace and probably be interpreted as harassment by outsiders.
                          Go Gophers!

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                            What you call as European harassment is an outcome of much more distinct gender roles in Europe. I've always thought of women and men being pretty much interchangeable regarding most societal norms. But many women prefer to have a distinct gender role. And its more pronounced in Europe. They see it as a natural thing to have children and raise a family rather than be a breadwinner like often women in the US. Ultimately, the outcome of this can't but naturally show up in the workplace and probably be interpreted as harassment by outsiders.
                            Yeah, none of the European women I met minded being treated as second class citizens at all. Not one little bit.
                            If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

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                            • #89
                              Re: Chess

                              Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
                              Yeah, none of the European women I met minded being treated as second class citizens at all. Not one little bit.
                              I'm going to give 5mn_Major credit on this, though. For one thing, he had to know that voicing that thought was going to get hooted at by much of the Cafe. For another thing, there is some truth to the general statement that comfort with gender role differentiation is strongly cultural. Mrs. Kepler, she of Women's Studies expertise, is always very impatient with the Whiggish notion that history has been proceeding resolutely from a "bad" past of gender roles to a "good" present of gender interchangeability. The scholarship that's out there doesn't support it. De-linking role from gender is not seen as an ideal social outcome in most of Asia, for example, by women themselves, and even education and some degree of western acculturation hasn't changed that. The same women who campaign bravely and loudly for equality before the law in these countries do not see that as gender equivalency. They would say that's conflating two very different things.

                              Let's take all the numbnuts from Muslims to Catholics to, well, pretty much every rural society in world history, who believe women are by divine decree "lesser" than men and toss them in the dumpster. The point is, once you strip away the hierarchical garbage those people believe in, which is pure rubbish, the people who are left who aren't misogynist still don't agree whether people aren't more fulfilled by tending towards gender-defined roles. We as predictable products of the tier 1 school conveyor belt think that's insane, but that actually is a cultural imposition, and to that extent... 5mn_Major is actually kinda right (though I don't think he's all that right about the countries we're talking about here).
                              Cornell University
                              National Champion 1967, 1970
                              ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                              Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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                              • #90
                                Re: Chess

                                Those outcomes of gender differentiation exist worldwide. East Asia, South Asia, Latin America, Africa and Eastern & Southern Europe. Americans see it differently because we're at one end of the spectrum (with Germanic Europe is somewhere in the middle). Even as a serious progressive I must say, the worldwide model (of which global women largely approve) is actually the more natural state of the gender relationship.
                                Go Gophers!

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