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Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

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  • Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
    Reminds me of that famous New Yorker cartoon, that has a map: NYC / Hudson River / San Francisco.
    San Francisco is not in that cartoon, but Texas and Nebraska are. It wasn't a comment on Flyover country at all. The jokes, in order of importance:

    (1) Only NYC matters

    (2) In fact, only Manhattan matters

    (3) Fuck Europe
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    • Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

      Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
      Yes, their religious beliefs were important to them, personally, but I fail to grasp exactly which term of F = Ma accounts for divine intervention (or even interest) in the universe.

      Nearly every single great Western composer produced Christian music, but is that because God inspired their music, or is it because the Church happened to be the organization that paid the best during the "period of great discovery" in western music (1650-1850), so the best composers gravitated that way?
      I haven't seen any evidence that someone like a Boyle, Bacon, Pascal, etc. only did what they did because the Catholic Church paid them. If you can point to any examples, I'm happy to take a look at them. The situation as to why people do what they do of course varied with each person, as situations always do. But, our beliefs, etc. are important in inspiring us in what we do, whether in our employment, family life, or whatever. To pretend they are off in a box somewhere, separate from what we do in life is simply not reflective of how human beings work.
      Originally posted by Priceless
      Good to see you're so reasonable.
      Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
      Very well, said.
      Originally posted by Rover
      A fair assessment Bob.

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      • Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

        Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
        But faith has had a big hand in social innovation.
        Cause and effect are reversed. Social attitudes evolve and that changes religious tenets. In 18th century America the Bible was used to prop up racism, in the 19th century religious groups attacked slavery. The religion changed to reflect new social attitudes. The same thing happened in the mid-20th century with Christian attitudes towards Judaism (eventually formally institutionalized in Catholic dogma) and is now happening with gays and women.

        Human institutions adapt or die. That's why the eternal project of fundamentalism is silly: the original configuration was a product of its time. That time is gone. Shellfish and mixed fabrics are fine now.

        Religions are very, very useful in promulgating changed attitudes (once they adapt to them) because they literally don't take no for an answer. Political arguments can be countered with pragmatic and utilitarian rebuttals: "ending slavery (or child labor, or air pollution, or fossil fuels) will wreck the economy." The feature (and the bug) of religious arguments is they say: "nothing justifies this practice."
        Last edited by Kepler; 06-18-2014, 02:02 PM.
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        • Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

          Originally posted by Kepler View Post
          The feature (and the bug) of religious arguments is they say: "nothing justifies this practice."
          Case in point: the US abolitionist movement (which among the more extreme adherents even included domestic terrorism...hmm, a mixed bag here?)

          or Martin Luther King Jr and the civil rights movement (mostly non-violent by the practitioners, which helped turn public opinion against segretation supporters when THEY beat up the marchers. Very effective).

          Or John Paul II and the fall of Communism in eastern Europe (again, quite effective)
          "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

          "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

          "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

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          • Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

            Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
            I haven't seen any evidence that someone like a Boyle, Bacon, Pascal, etc. only did what they did because the Catholic Church paid them. If you can point to any examples, I'm happy to take a look at them. The situation as to why people do what they do of course varied with each person, as situations always do. But, our beliefs, etc. are important in inspiring us in what we do, whether in our employment, family life, or whatever. To pretend they are off in a box somewhere, separate from what we do in life is simply not reflective of how human beings work.
            Absolutely true. Particularly during the period from about 600 to 1600, it makes no sense to talk about religious values and personal identity and motivation as separate. The worldview "horizon" of the Medieval and even Renaissance and Reformation Christian was bounded inside religion. There was no "outside."
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            • Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

              Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
              Case in point: the US abolitionist movement (which among the more extreme adherents even included domestic terrorism...hmm, a mixed bag here?)

              or Martin Luther King Jr and the civil rights movement (mostly non-violent by the practitioners, which helped turn public opinion against segretation supporters when THEY beat up the marchers. Very effective).

              Or John Paul II and the fall of Communism in eastern Europe (again, quite effective)
              The other one is abortion. It's a really interesting case since (1) it's not finished yet, (2) it's being opposed by equal but opposite moral values (the equality of women and their sovereignty over their bodies) which are distinctly not religious, and (3) historically it's a fairly new conflict, since religion viewed abortion as "a resumption of natural cycles" until the issue became politicized around 1900. The latter makes it very much like the opposition to slavery, which was A-OK with religion for almost its entire history. It should also give women's rights supporters pause since it proves that just because the church flip-flops doesn't mean it won't win.

              If I had to put money on it, I'd say the natural compromise point where religion rejoins secular social attitudes will be an acceptance of contraception and a prohibition of abortion, once contraceptives become full-proof and the impact on privileged women is moot. It won't be the first time a technological advance changes both a social and a religious attitude. Poor women will get the shaft when their wealthier sisters turn on them since in a materialist culture money creates morality.
              Last edited by Kepler; 06-18-2014, 02:27 PM.
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              • Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

                Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
                I haven't seen any evidence that someone like a Boyle, Bacon, Pascal, etc. only did what they did because the Catholic Church paid them. If you can point to any examples, I'm happy to take a look at them. The situation as to why people do what they do of course varied with each person, as situations always do. But, our beliefs, etc. are important in inspiring us in what we do, whether in our employment, family life, or whatever. To pretend they are off in a box somewhere, separate from what we do in life is simply not reflective of how human beings work.
                The music was just an example of why even something that appears OVERTLY religious in content (Christian music, in this case) may have had a much more mundane inspiration (I will get paid). Creation of scientific knowledge is not only not overtly religious, it's not even remotely religious in its content, so it seems to me to be very reasonable to suspect that their faith was not "integral" to their scientific endeavors. I see nothing in any of Newton's work that I'm familiar with (as a mechanical engineer who has read Principia) that is "integrally" tied up with religion - even if Christianity fades, classical mechanics will remain. One does not depend upon the other.

                Would Newton really have been less curious about the world or less capable of putting it all together if he had grown up as an atheist? That is effectively what you are asserting, but I strongly doubt you have any concrete reason to believe it.
                If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

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                • Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

                  Kepler

                  IIRC the original thought behind contraception was to keep the lower classes from breeding.
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                  • Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

                    Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
                    The music was just an example of why even something that appears OVERTLY religious in content (Christian music, in this case) may have had a much more mundane inspiration (I will get paid). Creation of scientific knowledge is not only not overtly religious, it's not even remotely religious in its content, so it seems to me to be very reasonable to suspect that their faith was not "integral" to their scientific endeavors. I see nothing in any of Newton's work that I'm familiar with (as a mechanical engineer who has read Principia) that is "integrally" tied up with religion - even if Christianity fades, classical mechanics will remain. One does not depend upon the other.

                    Would Newton really have been less curious about the world or less capable of putting it all together if he had grown up as an atheist? That is effectively what you are asserting, but I strongly doubt you have any concrete reason to believe it.
                    Newton wasn't an atheist, so any speculation is just that, sheer speculation that neither of us can prove. His religious writings aren't nearly as well known obviously, but that doesn't mean they don't exist or were not a big part of his life.

                    Something doesn't have to be overtly or integrally tied into something else to have an influence. You're being ridiculously simplistic. Maybe you live in a world devoid of motivation and hope that help people pursue things in their life?
                    Originally posted by Priceless
                    Good to see you're so reasonable.
                    Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                    Very well, said.
                    Originally posted by Rover
                    A fair assessment Bob.

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                    • Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

                      Originally posted by joecct View Post
                      Kepler

                      IIRC the original thought behind contraception was to keep the lower classes from breeding.
                      Contraception is as old as humanity; we were just really bad at it. Some 19th century social movements got racism, class conflict, women's rights, and eugenics all tangled up, but they were neither the first nor the most important advocates of contraception. It's kind of like arguing that because the Transcendentalists founded Brook Farm that Unitarians are just in it for the kinky sex.
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                      • Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

                        Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
                        Newton wasn't an atheist, so any speculation is just that, sheer speculation that neither of us can prove. His religious writings aren't nearly as well known obviously, but that doesn't mean they don't exist or were not a big part of his life.
                        My understanding is that Newton was deeply religious, as were many of the leading lights of Brit science in the 17th and 18th century. Meanwhile, over in France explicitly anti-religious men were making the ground-breaking discoveries. Religious obsession can stifle creativity in a second-rate mind, but so can commerce or politics. Horniness doesn't seem to, oddly enough -- as a very general rule, the more curious the brain, the more wide-ranging its tactile experiments. Either that or everyone's always been a horndog and intellectuals were the only ones who didn't have to fake it.
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                        • Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

                          Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                          Cause and effect are reversed. Social attitudes evolve and that changes religious tenets. In 18th century America the Bible was used to prop up racism, in the 19th century religious groups attacked slavery. The religion changed to reflect new social attitudes. The same thing happened in the mid-20th century with Christian attitudes towards Judaism (eventually formally institutionalized in Catholic dogma) and is now happening with gays and women.
                          Abolition of slavery in the British Empire was the direct result of the acts of 1807 and 1833. The committee for the Abolition of the Slave Trade and the Anti Savery Society drove the respective movements. The organizations were founded by an evangelical William Wilberforce and consisted of an alliance between Protestants and Quakers.

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_Trade_Act_of_1807
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_Abolition_Act_1833

                          Here's a pretty indepth piece that shows the real impact (not just individuals saying its why they kept a slave) that Christians had on abolitionism in the US...by the National Humanitarian Center which has absolutely nothing to do with religion and has associations with Harvard and Princeton.

                          The cause of immediate emancipation, as the abolitionists came to define it, had a different germ of inspiration from those Enlightenment ideals that Jefferson had articulated: the rise of a fervent religious reawakening just as the new Republic was being created.

                          http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/...fo/amabrel.htm

                          If you'd like to discuss...you can start by addressing the meat of this work.
                          Last edited by 5mn_Major; 06-18-2014, 09:33 PM.
                          Go Gophers!

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                          • Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

                            Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                            I assumed you were past the 'Anne Coutler says its true so it must be true' rhetoric. In other words, just because an individual slave owner said 'they were just following the Bible' doesn't mean Christianity had any real impact on the continuation of slavery whatsoever. Beyond that, everything youre posting is a fluffy point of view. Sorry.
                            What if that individual slave owner happened to be setting policy for a major state fighting to preserve slavery?

                            "We recognize the negro as God and God's Book and God's Laws, in nature, tell us to recognize him - our inferior, fitted expressly for servitude...You cannot transform the negro into anything one-tenth as useful or as good as what slavery enables them to be."

                            "[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts."

                            Jefferson Davis

                            Let me guess: no TRUE Christian would ever have argued in favor of slavery....
                            If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

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                            • Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

                              Every time I read this thread title I can't help but think of the words:
                              Larry
                              Craig
                              Wide
                              Very wide
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                              Originally posted by SanTropez
                              May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                              Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                              I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                              Originally posted by Kepler
                              When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
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                              • Re: Your Political Stance - 2014 Edition

                                Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
                                What if that individual slave owner happened to be setting policy for a major state fighting to preserve slavery?

                                "We recognize the negro as God and God's Book and God's Laws, in nature, tell us to recognize him - our inferior, fitted expressly for servitude...You cannot transform the negro into anything one-tenth as useful or as good as what slavery enables them to be."

                                "[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts."

                                Jefferson Davis
                                I've been waiting for the 'Hitler was a Christian so Christianity is bad' argument. How much of a Christian was Jefferson Davis? Not much as far as wiki is concerned...no mention of Christianity.

                                Anti slavery organizations that fed abolition around the world were inherently Christian. On the other hand, anyone who believes that the Confederacy pushed for slavery or fought the civil war because of the Bible knows nothing of history.

                                Time to be honest...your post is just a smoke screen as you are not capable of addressing any of my points. Not one.
                                Go Gophers!

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