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  • #76
    Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

    Originally posted by Handyman View Post
    And if there is no way? Not everyone has the resources to work around the problem which is something that gets ignored.
    Handy, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you here. I just think the "lack of resources" argument gets trotted out too often, usually for political purposes, in this debate.

    If a citizen in this country really wants to vote, I mean they really have every desire and intention of voting in a state or federal election, there aren't any laws that they've passed, or are proposed, that will realistically prohibit that person from voting.

    If you need an id, then get an id. Don't wait until 4 p.m. on election day. Go now.

    If you have to work, check to see if there are laws in your state that require employers to release you from work with sufficient time to vote. Many states have these. Or plan to vote before or after work. Or get an absentee ballot ahead of time and vote.

    I understand not everyone has been as fortunate as some of us in terms of employment, resources, etc... But if you really want to vote in this country, there isn't anything standing in your way, and there hasn't been anything proposed that will stand in your way.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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    • #77
      Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

      Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
      Handy, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you here. I just think the "lack of resources" argument gets trotted out too often, usually for political purposes, in this debate.

      If a citizen in this country really wants to vote, I mean they really have every desire and intention of voting in a state or federal election, there aren't any laws that they've passed, or are proposed, that will realistically prohibit that person from voting.

      If you need an id, then get an id. Don't wait until 4 p.m. on election day. Go now.

      If you have to work, check to see if there are laws in your state that require employers to release you from work with sufficient time to vote. Many states have these. Or plan to vote before or after work. Or get an absentee ballot ahead of time and vote.

      I understand not everyone has been as fortunate as some of us in terms of employment, resources, etc... But if you really want to vote in this country, there isn't anything standing in your way, and there hasn't been anything proposed that will stand in your way.
      Uh, huh.

      And what exactly is the purpose of proposing road blocks to voting that weren't there before? Exactly what problem are we trying to solve besides getting more white Republicans in Congress?
      **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

      Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
      Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

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      • #78
        Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

        Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
        Uh, huh.

        And what exactly is the purpose of proposing road blocks to voting that weren't there before? Exactly what problem are we trying to solve besides getting more white Republicans in Congress?
        As I wrote before, I think these clowns who are proposing things like voter id's, limited voting hours, etc..., all have as their motive a "roadblock" to certain voters access to the polls. No doubt about it. But again, as I've tried to point out, they aren't real roadblocks, unless you let them be. I don't think most people, including minorities, let them be roadblocks. As I wrote in response to Priceless, when someone suggests that minorities won't be able to figure out how, or make the time, to vote, just because of these "roadblocks", I find that kind of insulting.
        That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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        • #79
          Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

          Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
          If a citizen in this country really wants to vote, I mean they really have every desire and intention of voting in a state or federal election, there aren't any laws that they've passed, or are proposed, that will realistically prohibit that person from voting.

          If you need an id, then get an id. Don't wait until 4 p.m. on election day. Go now.

          If you have to work, check to see if there are laws in your state that require employers to release you from work with sufficient time to vote. Many states have these. Or plan to vote before or after work. Or get an absentee ballot ahead of time and vote.

          I understand not everyone has been as fortunate as some of us in terms of employment, resources, etc... But if you really want to vote in this country, there isn't anything standing in your way, and there hasn't been anything proposed that will stand in your way.
          I'm sorry but this argument lost in Pennsylvania because its unrealistic. In a perfect world, yes people should be able to get ID's but that depends on an efficient and fully functional state govt. The problem in PA is that they changed to ID standard during the election year and then said all IDs will be free at the DMV. Sounds good, right? Maybe, unless you've actually been to the DMV. People were taking time off at lunch and hopping the bus crosstown in Philly to go get their ID, or first thing in the morning, only to find 2 hour lines staring at them. That is voter discrimination in a nutshell. Whether by incompetence or design, these people are not being given a realistic chance to get a voter ID within a certain timeframe. Its no coincidence that Republican legislatures that tried this all put these rules in place within months of election days, be it primaries or general elections, while Dem legislatures gave people until the next election 2 years hence (RI). I have no problem with ID's, but you can't change the rules during the year of the election, nor can you put in place a process (relying on the timeliness of the DMV) that anybody with half a brain knows will fail.
          Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

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          • #80
            Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

            Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
            As I wrote before, I think these clowns who are proposing things like voter id's, limited voting hours, etc..., all have as their motive a "roadblock" to certain voters access to the polls. No doubt about it. But again, as I've tried to point out, they aren't real roadblocks, unless you let them be. I don't think most people, including minorities, let them be roadblocks. As I wrote in response to Priceless, when someone suggests that minorities won't be able to figure out how, or make the time, to vote, just because of these "roadblocks", I find that kind of insulting.
            You are a sensible guy, Hovey. Do you think these measures, if passed, will reduce the number of minority votes? Not theoretically, as in all reasonable people who want to vote should be willing and able to jump through the hoops, but in practice. Do you think the clowns who are proposing these measures are fools with their money or self serving pragmatists. Or something else?

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            • #81
              Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

              Originally posted by burd View Post
              You are a sensible guy, Hovey. Do you think these measures, if passed, will reduce the number of minority votes? Not theoretically, as in all reasonable people who want to vote should be willing and able to jump through the hoops, but in practice. Do you think the clowns who are proposing these measures are fools with their money or self serving pragmatists. Or something else?
              Do I think these measures will reduce the number of votes, minority, white or both? I do. I don't see the measures causing an increase in votes, so the effect either has to be zero or a decrease.

              Do I think the decrease will be in any appreciable number? No, but candidly that's just a guess, and an uneducated one at that. I'm not sure anyone can say what the actual effect will be. That's why I think the Republicans are fools spending their time, and their money, trying to get these passed. Who knows how many votes they may block, or who that person may have voted for. I'm not convinced the poor, uneducated and disadvantaged in this country vote exclusively Democrat.

              But again, there are roadblocks, and then there are real roadblocks. If you require a person to own property to vote, that's a roadblock. If you require them to have a male appendage to vote, that's a roadblock. If you require the color of their skin to be white, that's a roadblock. If you require someone to register at least a day ahead of time, or show up with a picture id, that's not a roadblock. That's just giving them an excuse not to vote and to b**** about it.
              That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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              • #82
                Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

                Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                Handy, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you here. I just think the "lack of resources" argument gets trotted out too often, usually for political purposes, in this debate.

                If a citizen in this country really wants to vote, I mean they really have every desire and intention of voting in a state or federal election, there aren't any laws that they've passed, or are proposed, that will realistically prohibit that person from voting.

                If you need an id, then get an id. Don't wait until 4 p.m. on election day. Go now.

                If you have to work, check to see if there are laws in your state that require employers to release you from work with sufficient time to vote. Many states have these. Or plan to vote before or after work. Or get an absentee ballot ahead of time and vote.

                I understand not everyone has been as fortunate as some of us in terms of employment, resources, etc... But if you really want to vote in this country, there isn't anything standing in your way, and there hasn't been anything proposed that will stand in your way.
                Two things:

                1) Have you ever lived in a poverty setting? Trust me what you are describing can be a monumental task. (I have)

                2) While I agree with you for the most part remember that this all came about because the GOP in various states were trying to implement these laws at the last second in the previous presidential election. Putting them in place now your arguments have a lot of validity because there is another couple years before it matters. At the time, it was a serious problem and really would have screwed over a lot of people, many of whom were minorities. Hell wasnt it the Governor of Pennsylvania that said their voting registration laws would guarantee the state for Romney? And he said that to the public!

                Like I said I dont think it is inherently racist. I dont think a bunch of rednecks are conspiring to stop the black vote like in Mississippi in days of yore but I also dont think it is as black and white (no pun intended) as you make it out to be either.
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                • #83
                  Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

                  Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                  Do I think the decrease will be in any appreciable number? No, but candidly that's just a guess, and an uneducated one at that. I'm not sure anyone can say what the actual effect will be. .


                  Several states have passed voter ID laws in the past several years, and according to the story I read about it, minority voter turnout either stayed the same or increased afterward. I don't have a link handy.




                  There is a big difference between saying "voter ID laws are racist" and saying "I think racists support voter ID laws." It wouldn't surprise me that some of the support for voter ID is from racists, and that some of the support for voter ID laws is from professional political partisans hoping to gain an advantage. At the same time, I also know that much of the support for voter ID laws comes from regular ordinary people who are fed up and disgusted with some of the machinations that occur in certain precincts on election day. When you have 1.8 million dead people on voter registration rolls (link posted earlier), that is offensive to many people's sense of fair play.



                  We had a situation here in 2010 governor's race: the Republican candidate received more votes than the Democrat candidate, yet the Democrat candidate won the election because of the Working Families Party vote. The polls were held open after 8 PM in one city and then, after the polls were supposed to be closed, additional people were taken on WFP busses to the polling place and allowed to enter. Given that the Attorney General and the Secretary of State were partisan Democrat, nothing was found to be untoward about it.

                  Now, if the Democrat would have won anyway without the irregularities, the blatant way in which these irregularities were allowed to occur undermines his legimitacy; people who otherwise would have acceded to a narrow defeat instead cry foul, which poisons the whole atmosphere. and if the Republican would have won, then it is indeed a successful election fraud. The problem is, no one will know one way or the other, and that galls people who don't support either party and switch their vote from one election to the other based solely on the candidates and not on their party affiliation.
                  Last edited by FreshFish; 04-29-2014, 08:35 AM.
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                  • #84
                    Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

                    Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                    Two things:

                    1) Have you ever lived in a poverty setting? Trust me what you are describing can be a monumental task. (I have)

                    2) While I agree with you for the most part remember that this all came about because the GOP in various states were trying to implement these laws at the last second in the previous presidential election. Putting them in place now your arguments have a lot of validity because there is another couple years before it matters. At the time, it was a serious problem and really would have screwed over a lot of people, many of whom were minorities. Hell wasnt it the Governor of Pennsylvania that said their voting registration laws would guarantee the state for Romney? And he said that to the public!

                    Like I said I dont think it is inherently racist. I dont think a bunch of rednecks are conspiring to stop the black vote like in Mississippi in days of yore but I also dont think it is as black and white (no pun intended) as you make it out to be either.
                    Fair enough.

                    No, I haven't had to live in a poverty setting. Never worried about getting enough to eat, or having a roof over my head. But while I haven't had those experiences personally, I don't think that prevents me from understanding it may not be as easy for those in a poverty setting to arrange to vote as it might be for me.

                    All I'm saying is we already have "roadblocks" to voting, if that's what you want to call them. I just don't think they're real roadblocks.

                    1. You have to know what day the election is.
                    2. You have to know where to go to vote.
                    3. You have to be able to get to the polling place.
                    4. You have to pre-register. For me, that meant bringing something like a utility bill, or someone from that precinct to vouch that I live there.
                    5. You have to figure out what to do with your kids, if you have them, while you go to vote.
                    6. You have to be able speak English when you get there and talk to the poll workers, or have someone available to translate.
                    7. You have to be able to read English on the ballot, or have someone available to translate.
                    8. You have to be able to color in the little dots with a pencil, or have someone do it for you (or operate whatever system is in place in your voting precinct).
                    9. You have to be able to navigate whatever weather obstacles may exist on election day. In the north, where I live, that can be a challenge.
                    10. You only get one day to vote.
                    11. If you are unavailable to vote on that one day, and you know it ahead of time, you can vote absentee ballot, but you have to follow the myriad of rules associated with that.
                    12. You have to vote within the hours permitted, which means getting off work or making whatever other arrangements are necessary to vote.
                    13. You'll probably have to stand in line, maybe for a considerable length of time.
                    14. You can't be in a coma or in emergency surgery or otherwise indisposed during that day.

                    These are the simple ones. There are probably 10 more I haven't listed.

                    Most of us do these without even thinking about it. Granted, Handy, those who live in poverty may struggle with them more than I do. I have a newspaper subscription and cable tv, so I know when and where to vote. I have a car. I have the ability to get off work. I speak and read English.

                    But here's the deal. I would be willing to bet that most of these roadblocks have existed for just about everyone on this board for their entire voting life. Because of that, we don't even think about it. I would bet that if voter id's were required dating back to the '50's, most of us wouldn't even think of those as being roadblocks either, or think of them as being racist or discriminatory. They'd just be the steps we've always followed to vote.
                    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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                    • #85
                      Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

                      Originally posted by Fighting Sioux 23 View Post
                      Of course, one particular poster in this thread is the epitome of disingenuous.
                      Just one. I don't think anyone here has a monopoly on 'disingenuous' nor 'sincere' for that matter.
                      Go Gophers!

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                      • #86
                        Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

                        Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                        I would bet that if voter id's were required dating back to the '50's, most of us wouldn't even think of those as being roadblocks either, or think of them as being racist or discriminatory. They'd just be the steps we've always followed to vote.
                        I think you're right with this. However, I think why a lot of people got upset with the latest round of trying to input voter ID laws, they were done with little notice prior to election.

                        Imagine showing up to the polls and they now require a passport to vote. You might have one...might even carry it with you (my wife does...not sure why). However, it would be a tremendous burden for those that didn't have it with them, or, worse, didn't have one. I think you can see why that would be extremely unfair and ridiculous. Substitute passport for photo ID and you have the same situation that a lot of people currently have and why they are against it.

                        Again, in theory, I'm okay with voter ID laws provided that my list of criteria is met. The biggest of those criteria is to have a booth at the polling place where someone can get a free voter ID the day of the election. After some amount of time (2-3 general elections maybe?) they could take away those booths, assuming that everyone was now aware of the new roadblock (which after 8-12 years, I would think that would be a reasonable assumption).

                        Ultimately though, nobody is truly concerned about voter fraud. It's a purely political issue. Those arguing otherwise are simply too blinded by their intense partisanship.
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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                          Just one. I don't think anyone here has a monopoly on 'disingenuous' nor 'sincere' for that matter.
                          There's one who is far more disingenuous than others though. Even to the extent it may just be an act ala Scooby, that poster can't even be genuine within the context of his act.

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                          • #88
                            Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

                            Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                            Fair enough.

                            No, I haven't had to live in a poverty setting. Never worried about getting enough to eat, or having a roof over my head. But while I haven't had those experiences personally, I don't think that prevents me from understanding it may not be as easy for those in a poverty setting to arrange to vote as it might be for me.

                            All I'm saying is we already have "roadblocks" to voting, if that's what you want to call them. I just don't think they're real roadblocks.
                            All of us have educated guesses. The important thing is that both parties, in this case the GOP, know the answer...as they have data. And the GOP is in fact going all out to change voting procedures. Coincidence...I think not.
                            Go Gophers!

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                            • #89
                              Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

                              Originally posted by Fighting Sioux 23 View Post
                              I think you're right with this. However, I think why a lot of people got upset with the latest round of trying to input voter ID laws, they were done with little notice prior to election.

                              Imagine showing up to the polls and they now require a passport to vote. You might have one...might even carry it with you (my wife does...not sure why). However, it would be a tremendous burden for those that didn't have it with them, or, worse, didn't have one. I think you can see why that would be extremely unfair and ridiculous. Substitute passport for photo ID and you have the same situation that a lot of people currently have and why they are against it.

                              Again, in theory, I'm okay with voter ID laws provided that my list of criteria is met. The biggest of those criteria is to have a booth at the polling place where someone can get a free voter ID the day of the election. After some amount of time (2-3 general elections maybe?) they could take away those booths, assuming that everyone was now aware of the new roadblock (which after 8-12 years, I would think that would be a reasonable assumption).

                              Ultimately though, nobody is truly concerned about voter fraud. It's a purely political issue. Those arguing otherwise are simply too blinded by their intense partisanship.
                              I agree 100% with the idea that you can't change the rules right before the election, especially if it could take some time to comply. The passport example is a good one. I also agree that anyone who proposes changing the rules immediately before the election is trying to game the system, and should be stopped. But that said, once the election was over, the protest against the "roadblocks" didn't stop.
                              That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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                              • #90
                                Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

                                Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
                                I agree 100% with the idea that you can't change the rules right before the election, especially if it could take some time to comply. The passport example is a good one. I also agree that anyone who proposes changing the rules immediately before the election is trying to game the system, and should be stopped. But that said, once the election was over, the protest against the "roadblocks" didn't stop.

                                Probably because once you start putting in place changing rules, there's nothing to stop the current party in power from continuing to change the rules. The idea isn't to make it too difficult to get an ID, which people will do eventually given enough time. The idea is to confuse voters into thinking they'll be standing in line for an hour, only to find out whatever ID they did get is no longer valid. Yes, voters should be able to sort through all that, but on the flip side, should they have to? Voting is fundamental to our democracy. I don't like, and people don't like, seeing one party gaming the system. I believe it was the GOP House Speaker in PA saying he just threw the election to Romney (this in a state Mittens lost by over 300,000 votes) so it looks like voter suppression was the plan on a grand scale. Given Obama's approx 3M vote total in the state, the GOP was trying to cause over 10% of his voters to stay home or be denied the ability to vote purely through voter ID shennanigans. That's something I'd expect to occur in Afghanistan, not in the United States.
                                Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                                Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                                "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

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