The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

Its not bragging if you can do it.

It aint bragging if you can do it.
Dizzy Dean

I don't know, maybe the word aint is now not PC.

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

But not your ravings. There is a big difference between attacking x's ideas and attacking x. However, I definitely use intemperate language at times about ideas or abstract groups of people (boxes, in your parlance) I find distasteful, and I take your point that this is bad rhetoric for arguing with someone who may identify with those ideas or groups (or fellow travelers, or whatever the weaker association is.

Intellectual honesty is all we have on a message board, though. Otherwise, why bother having the argument at all? I try to extend the benefit of the doubt of honesty and I'd appreciate the same from you. There have been a handful of posters over the years who have treated this like a courtroom and defended their client with whatever BS they needed to win. Those people are sad and worthy only of Ignore. They're also, happily, rare here (there are boards where they predominate, and I wish they'd go there). For the most part, people here are giving it their honest best.

Your last paragraph about "the shoe fitting" seems very un-Bob. I was at the time sure you were addressing that criticism specifically to me -- it was in the context of my argument and I was the only one making it. I'll accept that it was a general statement (which I reject) but I think you can see why I would see it as a direct, personal attack.

You're attacking more than x ideas. When you say it's fair game to go after folks who you don't like their perspectives and views, that to me is really strong stuff. Maybe you mean something different in saying fair game than I do, but I take it as it's ok to unleash to dogs to go after these people and do pretty much whatever one feels to do, like firing people from jobs if they vote ways we don't like or whatever. To me that's garbage whatever side of the aisle it comes from and I won't stand by and pretend otherwise. If we can't respect (and again this isn't directed at you, but as a general comment) one another and let people discuss their views, even those we strongly disagree with (which, realistically is becoming less and less the case), we've become a shell of the nation and principles we supposedly espouse.

The last paragraph basically gave you an out if you weren't advocating that sort of thing (which I don't expect you are, despite some strong statements), even though many on your side take that sort of approach. I thought most of my comments were pretty obviously general. I've credited you with being the most reasonable person on the liberal side of things on this board quite a few times. Frankly if a handful of decent posters like you were no longer around, I probably would not come around anymore, as the rabid attack folks who blithely mix personal attacks with partisan discussion would be all that's left to disagree with, and they aren't worth the effort.

That's the first mention of intellectual honesty I've seen around here in, maybe forever. People tend to think of people they agree with as being intellectually honest, and the other side as not being so, so intellectual honesty just become more partisan baggage to argue about. There really isn't much reason to bother really, when it comes down to it. I almost never come around here when I'm at home in the evenings or weekends, as my free time is better spent in a million ways. At this point it's more out of habit than anything, as I've probably been coming onto this board going on 20 years (I don't recall exactly when I came around, but probably mid to late 90s, as I recall stuff like the Jason Krog for Hobey campaigning). The folks who defend their side no matter who are a lot more common here than you seem to think, at least IMHO. There's plenty to complain about and attack on both sides of the aisle, but the folks who will admit this (and temper their comments and perspectives as a result) are relatively rare, as they are in our media and national discourse.

[Kepler]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

Religion be ****ed. I want the Los Mets jerseys banned. I don't care if its by legislation, executive order, or by a judicial injunction. They gotta go even if it has to go all the way to the Supreme Court.

I see you posted this during the game. I was having the same reaction at the same moment.

The only consolation is they're not this.

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

Being equal under the law only sucks if you're used to being favored.

I don't need to see the ten commandments at the Alabama court building.

Somehow many liberals (of which I consider myself) can understand that gays are typically fine, muslims are typically fine, people living in other countries are typically fine, but Christians treated as a group as just bad news. Sure there are examples of bad behavior of each of those forementioned groups...but the liberal generalizations kick into overdrive with the last one. It has been a long time since I've been under the impression that one group a monopoly on bigotry. And this site is exhibit one of how intolerant and disrespectful non believers can be. I recall at no time has any Christian on this site ever called out a non believer as inferring they're out of touch or silly or stupid because of their beliefs. But the reverse happens all the time.

[unofan]

I don't need to see the ten commandments at the Alabama court building.

Somehow many liberals (of which I consider myself) can understand that gays are typically fine, muslims are typically fine, people living in other countries are typically fine, but Christians treated as a group as just bad news. Sure there are examples of bad behavior of each of those forementioned groups...but the liberal generalizations kick into overdrive with the last one. It has been a long time since I've been under the impression that one group a monopoly on bigotry. And this site is exhibit one of how intolerant and disrespectful non believers can be. I recall at no time has any Christian on this site ever called out a non believer as inferring they're out of touch or silly or stupid because of their beliefs. But the reverse happens all the time.

I dint have an issue with Christianity, I attended Catholic schools for 12 of my 20 years of formal education, including law school. (Again, insert joke about Catholics not being Christians here).

I have an issue with the particular sect of Christianity which believes in a literal Bible, is anti-evolution, believes the earth is only 6000 years old, pushes for creationism in biology rather than theology class, and generally acts like their particular version of Christianity is not only the correct one but that they speak for all Christendom whenever they open their mouths.

Put another way, I'm sure there are people of other faiths who are against gay marriage. but none seem to invoke their religion as fervently as the stereotypical anti-gay marriage activist invokes Christianity.

It also strikes me as extremely hypocritical and completely anti-Christian to suggest the border crisis should be solved by shooting the kids. And yet this board's most evangelical Christian (yes, even more so than Bob) proposed exactly that, and even attempted to justify it using the bible.

What I guess it comes down to, when people use their faith as a sword against others they should expect push back when they then turn around and use it as a shield against criticism directed at them. They opened the door first by invoking their religion as a reason to do x, they don't get to close it behind them and claim persecution when people thereafter throw their religion back at them.

[Rover]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

I don't need to see the ten commandments at the Alabama court building.

Somehow many liberals (of which I consider myself) can understand that gays are typically fine, muslims are typically fine, people living in other countries are typically fine, but Christians treated as a group as just bad news. Sure there are examples of bad behavior of each of those forementioned groups...but the liberal generalizations kick into overdrive with the last one. It has been a long time since I've been under the impression that one group a monopoly on bigotry. And this site is exhibit one of how intolerant and disrespectful non believers can be. I recall at no time has any Christian on this site ever called out a non believer as inferring they're out of touch or silly or stupid because of their beliefs. But the reverse happens all the time.

Again I think its blowback for prior acts. Not saying that's right mind you, but "I Art Holier Than Thou" was a long time staple of the right. I'll cite again the 2004 campaign, where a group of people were turned into a weapon for people to turn out against them. Human nature dictates there's going to be payback for that when tables are turned.

I do feel bad for the true believers. Most religious people I know don't want to impose their beliefs on you. The problems arise when people under the guise of religious faith try to enact laws forcing woman to give birth to her rapists child for example.

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

I see you posted this during the game. I was having the same reaction at the same moment.

But was it for the same reason?

[Kepler]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

The folks who defend their side no matter who are a lot more common here than you seem to think, at least IMHO.

I'm not sure, but I try to give the benefit of the doubt. People often repeat things here which are lies, but they're lies commonly found on websites that cater to their positions, so under ordinary circumstances I assume those people are, in their mind, honestly repeating facts, unknowingly passing the lie along. Of course, if one was a little less generous he might assume they knew full well but were just trying to win.

But, I always think, win what?

[Kepler]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

I have an issue with the particular sect of Christianity which believes in a literal Bible, is anti-evolution, believes the earth is only 6000 years old, pushes for creationism in biology rather than theology class, and generally acts like their particular version of Christianity is not only the correct one but that they speak for all Christendom whenever they open their mouths.

And even then they'd be no more than one more sideshow in the circus of humanity, but here they have real power that does real damage. You can suspend fact all you want at your house. But when you affect my house, shit just got real.

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

Huh, people who think what they believe is correct. Never seen that one anywhere but Christianity. Egads some people are obsessed. Once again glad unofan is on ignore.

[Rover]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

This discussion sums up neatly why I started my own religion.

[SJHovey]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

And even then they'd be no more than one more sideshow in the circus of humanity, but here they have real power that does real damage. You can suspend fact all you want at your house. But when you affect my house, shit just got real.

This I agree with 100%.

But that said, recall how this thread started down this trail. A discussion of the Hobby Lobby decision.

Isn't that all the owners of Hobby Lobby asked? Don't come into our house, and on our dime, make us pay for something against our religion? They weren't proposing to go into your house and make you take birth control, or prevent you from doing the same. If women, or the government, or anyone else wants to pay for it, Hobby Lobby doesn't care and certainly didn't object. But it was coming into their house, and making them pay for it that raised their ire. Doesn't that justify the **** getting real for them?

[jerphisch]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

This I agree with 100%.

But that said, recall how this thread started down this trail. A discussion of the Hobby Lobby decision.

Isn't that all the owners of Hobby Lobby asked? Don't come into our house, and on our dime, make us pay for something against our religion? They weren't proposing to go into your house and make you take birth control, or prevent you from doing the same. If women, or the government, or anyone else wants to pay for it, Hobby Lobby doesn't care and certainly didn't object. But it was coming into their house, and making them pay for it that raised their ire. Doesn't that justify the **** getting real for them?

Only if you believe that corporations are people.

[FreshFish]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

Only if you believe that corporations are people.

or if you make a distinction (as SCOTUS did) that closely-held corporations are merely a device used by their owners to run their companies, so that the company can continue to operate even after one of the owners dies or retires. If two people own a company, are they people?

that's very different than if 250,000 people own a company, no?

[Kepler]

Re: The Power of SCOTUS V: The Final Frontier

Maybe Suny-Ithaca aint so bad...

In Ted Cruz' immortal words, it's just a "lesser Ivy."