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College Football Players---Students or Employees?

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  • #76
    Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
    Two elements to this discussion that seem under-emphasized to me are the role of agents, and the role of "boosters."

    Someone asked earlier, "why can't football players / basketball players take out loans?" Like an agent lends them money against their future earnings as a pro? then they are in debt to this guy but then don't make it as a pro, then what? or some shady character lends them money and then says, "hey, I'll forgive your loan if you miss a few free throws..."

    or boosters...."hey, come on down to my car dealership and meet and greet folks, and I'll pay you for that." That kind of practice actually was not all that uncommon, I remember reading an article in Sports Illustrated months ago about how some UCLA basketball players in the 1960s had "jobs" like that.

    I don't disagree that the athletes are "used" by their schools. I'm not sure the solution is to allow agents, boosters, and unions also to "use" them as well. yet at the same time, do we want to appoint someone as the guardian ad litem for the players??

    As many others have pointed out, the real underlying problem is that the NFL and the NBA are using college sports as their minor leagues. It's not like this in baseball, where a talented player coming out of high school has a real choice to go into the minors or go on to college. and it's even less like this for sports like wrestling or swimming or track and field, there really are very few people who can have a pro career in those sports (though top track athletes apparently can earn a decent wage in Europe).
    Why don't they get a federal student loan and skip this scenario?
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    College Hockey 6       College Football 0
    BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
    Originally posted by SanTropez
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    • #77
      Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

      Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
      Right, but perhaps their true "market value" is $200,000, but we don't know because they can't get it - can't even negotiate for it - because their employer is engaging in business practices that would be illegal in any other industry.
      Forgive my being dense , but they can't get what? Payment outside of scholarships?
      Code:
      As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
      College Hockey 6       College Football 0
      BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
      Originally posted by SanTropez
      May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
      Originally posted by bigblue_dl
      I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
      Originally posted by Kepler
      When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
      He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

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      • #78
        Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

        Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
        Forgive my being dense , but they can't get what? Payment outside of scholarships?
        Overall compensation, in whatever form it takes.
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        • #79
          Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

          Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
          Overall compensation, in whatever form it takes.
          Oh, now I feel stupid. I had completely misread the first few words of your original post. True market value of the scholarship.

          You're probably right in that the true market value might be much, much higher. However, I don't think this is cause for them to become employees. Why can't people who are only students collectively bargain to increase their grants and scholarships? Especially when the universities are receiving billions of dollars from federal and private research grants.

          Either way, if this gets close to doing some real damage to football schools, you can be d*mned sure that the politicians from the south, Big Ten, and other football-centric regions will pass the requisite laws exempting the NCAA.
          Code:
          As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
          College Hockey 6       College Football 0
          BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
          Originally posted by SanTropez
          May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
          Originally posted by bigblue_dl
          I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
          Originally posted by Kepler
          When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
          He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

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          • #80
            Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

            Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
            Oh, now I feel stupid. I had completely misread the first few words of your original post. True market value of the scholarship.
            No worries.

            You're probably right in that the true market value might be much, much higher. However, I don't think this is cause for them to become employees.
            The fact that they're getting a raw deal (relative to market value) is not what makes them employees. The fact that the university requires 50 hrs/week of work, dictates where they live, who they associate with, etc, in exchange for compensation makes them employees. GIVEN that they're considered to be employees, then the employer has to allow them to negotiate and can't collude with other employers to depress compensation.

            Why can't people who are only students collectively bargain to increase their grants and scholarships? Especially when the universities are receiving billions of dollars from federal and private research grants.
            The university does not exert nearly the control over "regular students" as they do for athletes, so regular students would not be considered to be employees. I understand your thinking, though: "why should Deadbeat U charge me $50K in tuition when they're already getting billions in research grants?" A valid, but separate, question.

            Either way, if this gets close to doing some real damage to football schools, you can be d*mned sure that the politicians from the south, Big Ten, and other football-centric regions will pass the requisite laws exempting the NCAA.
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            • #81
              Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

              Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
              Right, but perhaps their true "market value" is $200,000, but we don't know because they can't get it - can't even negotiate for it - because their employer is engaging in business practices that would be illegal in any other industry.
              Ummm...so then a chem student on scholarship should be able to do the same?

              BTW I think UNC should get the death penalty for what is going on. College athletes are students first in my mind and if they arent going to even pretend to take it seriously they should be gone. Also, any coach who tells a player they cant take a certain major should be fired. This does not include the Colter situation because I think that dude is full of it.
              Last edited by Handyman; 04-03-2014, 12:59 PM.
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              • #82
                Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                Ummm...so then a chem student on scholarship should be able to do the same?
                Sure - if you can show me a chemistry department who runs its students' lives in anywhere close to the same manner that the Northwestern athletic department does to its football players.

                BTW I think UNC should get the death penalty for what is going on. College athletes are students first in my mind and if they arent going to even pretend to take it seriously they should be gone. Also, any coach who tells a player they cant take a certain major should be fired. This does not include the Colter situation because I think that dude is full of it.
                No arguments from me.
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                • #83
                  Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

                  Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
                  Right, but perhaps their true "market value" is $200,000, but we don't know because they can't get it - can't even negotiate for it - because their employer is engaging in business practices that would be illegal in any other industry.
                  Going to suck when they graduate and get that $80,000 tax bill, plus interest and penalties.
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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                    Why don't they get a federal student loan and skip this scenario?
                    Why would they take a student loan that they have to pay back at 5% when someone offers a sweetheart deal?

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                    • #85
                      Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

                      blah blah blah....

                      each big ten school last season made 20.67mm off their tv contact for football.
                      even the nfl only keeps 50% of that and let's the players have the rest in the 'salary cap'.

                      so the 80 players on each big ten team should get their share of $20.67million. they can afford to pay for school themselves then and who's complaining?!?!
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                      • #86
                        Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

                        Originally posted by mookie1995 View Post
                        blah blah blah....

                        each big ten school last season made 20.67mm off their tv contact for football.
                        even the nfl only keeps 50% of that and let's the players have the rest in the 'salary cap'.

                        so the 80 players on each big ten team should get their share of $20.67million. they can afford to pay for school themselves then and who's complaining?!?!
                        Yeah, the Big Time State schools that are powerhouse programs are the one's that could in theory get away with paying their football players, but its the cupcake schools that those schools bring in that are clearly have nots that don't get that kind of money are the ones that are going to go belly up if this ever goes into effect. First off, they'll never allow it for the just the football players to get paid, the CC team to the cheerleaders are going to want to get paid. And there's a lot of schools that are like already struggling to make ends meet are going to be Fooked if they gotta pay the women's swim team a living wage.

                        And Heaven help you if you're a fan of a male sport that's semi-expensive to run and doesn't always turn a profit for the school. AD's are going to want to trim the fat somewhere if they do have to pay all of their athletes.
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                        • #87
                          Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

                          Originally posted by mookie1995 View Post
                          so the 80 players on each big ten team should get their share of $20.67million. they can afford to pay for school themselves then and who's complaining?!?!

                          Not sure whether you meant that seriously or sarcastically but that is an intriguing solution. End football and men's basketball scholarships entirely and just pay the players to play outright.


                          oh, wait, then you'll have to figure out pay scales or something like that....what's a left guard worth compared to a cornerback? what happens if someone changes positions?....

                          never mind, not such a good idea after all....



                          perhaps totally unrelated....I don't think that the "no NLRB decisions are valid because of faulty 'recess' appointments that occurred when Senate was not in recess" case has yet been decided by SCOTUS. Are decisions made by the current NLRB not part of that challenge because they went back and got requisite confirmation? not sure whether any NLRB decision made within a certain time frame will mean anything, they might all get tossed out. haven't really kept track.
                          Last edited by FreshFish; 04-04-2014, 11:47 AM.
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                          • #88
                            Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

                            Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                            Not sure whether you meant that seriously or sarcastically but that is an intriguing solution. End football and men's basketball scholarships entirely and just pay the players to play outright.


                            oh, wait, then you'll have to figure out pay scales or something like that....what's a left guard worth compared to a cornerback? what happens if someone changes positions?....

                            never mind, not such a good idea after all....
                            At the college level, you're not going to bother figuring out which position is worth more than another on the team. Lineups are too fluid, either due to the immense number of substitutions as part of a coach's gameplan, or just a player not performing. The bigger question would be which player is worth more, do you pay everyone the same base and then provide bonuses to the starters? If a coach is known to platoon players, who's then considered the starter? Regardless, that's something for the schools to work out should the NLRB's decision be upheld.
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                            • #89
                              Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

                              Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                              At the college level, you're not going to bother figuring out which position is worth more than another on the team. Lineups are too fluid, either due to the immense number of substitutions as part of a coach's gameplan, or just a player not performing. The bigger question would be which player is worth more, do you pay everyone the same base and then provide bonuses to the starters? If a coach is known to platoon players, who's then considered the starter? Regardless, that's something for the schools to work out should the NLRB's decision be upheld.
                              ...and I'm sure there would be a veritable army of economists itching and ready to help them determine those market factors - and get a piece of the action!
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                              • #90
                                Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

                                Again, I do not believe the suit is about pay. I think the plaintiffs are focusing on care of injuries post college.

                                Right now if Johnny or Betsy suffer a career ending and/or a debilitating life time injury the college or NCAA washes their hands of the student once they're no longer enrolled.

                                If the plaintiffs prevail, then there will be some form of workers compensation for as long as the former student can't work, which seems to me to be a fair outcome.
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