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2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

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  • Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    Liberal ideas and Christianity teamed up to end it. Existing laissez faire (libertarianism?) in the south did not.
    I guess all the slaveholders were Jewish or Muslins or something...

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    • Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

      Originally posted by Priceless View Post
      I guess all the slaveholders were Jewish or Muslins or something...
      That's why people also call the south the Yarmulke Belt.

      Comment


      • Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

        Originally posted by Priceless View Post
        I guess all the slaveholders were Jewish or Muslins or something...
        The major abolitionist moral arguments were usually based on Christianity and key abolitionist were or inspired by Christian clergy. Here's one article that summarizes the movement:

        http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/...fo/amabrel.htm

        Most students probably assume that the antislavery crusade that culminated in the Civil War was largely an outgrowth of Thomas Jefferson’s Declaration of Independence, which proclaimed, “All men are created equal.” The cause of immediate emancipation, as the abolitionists came to define it, had a different germ of inspiration from the rise of a fervent religious reawakening just as the new Republic was being created. That impulse sprang from two main sources: the theology and practice of Quakerism and the emergence of an aggressive, interdenominational evangelicalism.

        Oh and the National Humanities Center is one of the world's top humanities based institutions and has no religious affiliation.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Humanities_Center

        Its the same in many critical movements that have formed modern compassionate society...Jesus got us here.
        Go Gophers!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
          Its the same in many critical movements that have formed modern compassionate society...Jesus got us here.
          It just took almost two Millennia...And I thought Moses wandered through the desert with the Jews for a long time. I'm sure if I had time to look it up I could find John Calhoun or other champions of the "states rights" movement citing the Bible to justify the practice of slavery. But of course, the "War of Northern Aggression" was not fought over the issue of slavery, right?



          Edit:
          Defenders of slavery noted that in the Bible, Abraham had slaves. They point to the Ten Commandments, noting that "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, ... nor his manservant, nor his maidservant." In the New Testament, Paul returned a runaway slave, Philemon, to his master, and, although slavery was widespread throughout the Roman world, Jesus never spoke out against it.
          Defenders of slavery argued that the institution was divine, and that it brought Christianity to the heathen from across the ocean. Slavery was, according to this argument, a good thing for the enslaved. John C. Calhoun said, "Never before has the black race of Central Africa, from the dawn of history to the present day, attained a condition so civilized and so improved, not only physically, but morally and intellectually."
          JAMES THORNWELL, a minister, wrote in 1860, "The parties in this conflict are not merely Abolitionists and slaveholders, they are Atheists, Socialists, Communists, Red Republicans, Jacobins on the one side and the friends of order and regulated freedom on the other."
          http://www.ushistory.org/us/27f.asp
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_Hall_Association
          Last edited by Priceless; 04-10-2014, 08:23 AM.

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          • Originally posted by Priceless View Post
            It just took almost two Millennia...And I thought Moses wandered through the desert with the Jews for a long time. I'm sure if I had time to look it up I could find John Calhoun or other champions of the "states rights" movement citing the Bible to justify the practice of slavery. But of course, the "War of Northern Aggression" was not fought over the issue of slavery, right?
            Some thoughts

            I think it was James Michener who wrote that if Moses had walked a mile a day in the right direction for 40 years he would have ended up in England.

            The O'Hara's of Gone With the Wind fame were Catholic.

            There was slavery in the Bible. As was incest, sodomy, and adultery. There was also admonishment, smiting and forgiveness. And one can never forget the history.

            Slavery was not the proximate cause of the Civil War, but it became the Northern "cause" around the war's third year.
            CCT '77 & '78
            4 kids
            5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
            1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

            ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
            - Benjamin Franklin

            Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

            I want to live forever. So far, so good.

            Comment


            • Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

              From the Wikipedia article on slavery and Christianity

              Christian views on slavery are varied both regionally and historically. Slavery has been an integral part of Christianity for much of its history, spanning well over eighteen centuries. In the early years of Christianity, slavery was a normal feature of the economy and society in the Roman Empire, and well into the Middle Ages and beyond.[1] Most Christian figures in that early period, such as Saint Augustine, supported continuing slavery whereas several figures such as Saint Patrick were opposed. Both the Old Testament and New Testament sanction and endorse slavery which presents a difficult challenge for Christians advocating against slavery. About eighteen centuries after the birth of Christianity, as the abolition movement took shape across the globe, groups who advocated slavery's abolition struggled to use Christian teachings in support of their positions, instead turning to the vague concept of the 'spirit of Christianity' and textual argumentation.[2]

              The issue of Christianity and slavery is one that has seen intense conflict. Passages in the Bible have historically been used by both pro-slavery advocates and slavery abolitionists to support their respective views.

              Comment


              • Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

                Originally posted by joecct View Post
                Some thoughts

                I think it was James Michener who wrote that if Moses had walked a mile a day in the right direction for 40 years he would have ended up in England.
                Then he should stick to writing since he can't do math. Cairo to London = 2200 miles. 40*365 = 14,600 miles, more than half the world's circumference, so he could have gotten to literally any point on earth.
                If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
                  Then he should stick to writing since he can't do math. Cairo to London = 2200 miles. 40*365 = 14,600 miles, more than half the world's circumference, so he could have gotten to literally any point on earth.
                  He should have had God part the Atlantic Ocean and walked to Boca.
                  Last edited by Priceless; 04-10-2014, 09:13 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

                    Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                    He should have had God part the Atlantic Ocean and walked to Boca.
                    Which brings to mind the classic question: could an omnipotent God make an ocean so big even he couldn't part it?
                    If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

                    Comment


                    • Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

                      Slavery isn't, nor has been, an "integral" part of Christianity. Yes, it has existed through time and in societies that were significantly Christian. But, it's existence doesn't have any specific tie to Christianity, but was rather part of cultures at through time, whether Christian or not. And yes, the Bible has been used to justify it by some, as the Bible has been misused in many other ways to justify all sorts of things.
                      Originally posted by Priceless
                      Good to see you're so reasonable.
                      Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                      Very well, said.
                      Originally posted by Rover
                      A fair assessment Bob.

                      Comment


                      • Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

                        Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
                        Slavery isn't, nor has been, an "integral" part of Christianity. Yes, it has existed through time and in societies that were significantly Christian. But, it's existence doesn't have any specific tie to Christianity, but was rather part of cultures at through time, whether Christian or not. And yes, the Bible has been used to justify it by some, as the Bible has been misused in many other ways to justify all sorts of things.
                        Yeah, yeah - we know, Mr. Scotsman. All the good things in society are because of Christianity, and all the bad things are just culture.
                        If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

                        Comment


                        • Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

                          Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                          It just took almost two Millennia...And I thought Moses wandered through the desert with the Jews for a long time. I'm sure if I had time to look it up I could find John Calhoun or other champions of the "states rights" movement citing the Bible to justify the practice of slavery. But of course, the "War of Northern Aggression" was not fought over the issue of slavery, right?
                          The Bible didn't end slavery via abolitionism. Humans did, but they were driven by Christian ideals. Based on feedback to my post, it appears this is not up for debate.

                          Also, slavery was around well before Jesus walked the earth and existed in many places where the Bible never reached.

                          Additionally, every type of ideal in the history of the planet has been misused. Do you think patriotism has always been used justly? I think not. Does that mean 'pride in one's country' is to blame for bad wars? I think not.


                          So...
                          Although its been misused by many for their own ends, Christianity is not to blame for slavery and yet was crucial in its abolition. Its really not any more complicated than that.
                          Go Gophers!

                          Comment


                          • Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

                            No! Old Pio missed this..


                            http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...IVK/story.html
                            CCT '77 & '78
                            4 kids
                            5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                            1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                            ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                            - Benjamin Franklin

                            Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                            I want to live forever. So far, so good.

                            Comment


                            • Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

                              Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                              Although its been misused by many for their own ends, Christianity is not to blame for slavery and yet was crucial in its abolition. Its really not any more complicated than that.
                              What you've written here is 100% correct. It is equally correct to say, "Although its been misused by many for their own ends, Christianity is not to blame for slavery and yet was crucial in its extension. Its really not any more complicated than that."

                              You want to whitewash away the warts to further your agenda, pure and simple.
                              If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

                              Comment


                              • Re: 2nd Term Part VIII - The Thin Red Line

                                Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
                                Yeah, yeah - we know, Mr. Scotsman. All the good things in society are because of Christianity, and all the bad things are just culture.
                                Uh, yah, that's nowhere near what I said. But don't let that stop you from being a jerk.
                                Originally posted by Priceless
                                Good to see you're so reasonable.
                                Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                                Very well, said.
                                Originally posted by Rover
                                A fair assessment Bob.

                                Comment

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