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  • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

    Originally posted by Rover View Post
    Again, this line of reasoning makes zero sense, and its dangerous for the country. Giving one party cover with the trite "oh they both do it" allows the offending party to do the same thing again, with the knowledge they won't be held accountable. I didn't think anybody watched CNN anymore, but several posters out here seem to be brainwashed by their relentless false equivalency.

    Perhaps Bernie Madoff's victims could have watched their investments better or questioned the returns. However, no sane person would say they deserved what they got and are equally to blame in the fraud. Likewise, no sane person who isn't a GOP party hack would say that Dems deserve blame for the faked intelligence reports of the Bush admin. That's ridiculous.
    Assigning some guilt is not the same as assigning equal guilt.

    The GOP should be blasted for what it did, absolutely. I have a hard time imagining that you think I'm letting them off easy. Based on their gross incompetence since 1994 the GOP should never be trusted with the responsibility of governance again.

    The criticism of the Dems is much less, and in no way equal, but it must be said: they could have thrown grit in the gears and slowed down the rush to war, and they didn't. They could have protested torture and they didn't. Obama could, upon assuming office, have begun trying to dismantle the police state that the GOP so heedlessly and enthusiastically created, and he didn't. Instead they refused to enter the lists to push back against the far right rhetoric of endless religious war and presumption of guilt levied on the citizenry.

    If you are the sane man in the room, but you go along with everything the insane man does, you deserve some of the blame for what happens. If you want to avoid the criticism, stand up and fight the insane man.
    Last edited by Kepler; 09-15-2014, 11:07 AM.
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    • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

      Originally posted by Kepler View Post
      Assigning some guilt is not the same as assigning equal guilt.

      The GOP should be blasted for what it did, absolutely. I have a hard time imagining that you think I'm letting them off easy. Based on their gross incompetence since 1994 the GOP should never be trusted with the responsibility of governance again.

      The criticism of the Dems is much less, and in no way equal, but it must be said: they could have thrown grit in the gears and slowed down the rush to war, and they didn't. They could have protested torture and they didn't. Obama could, upon assuming office, have begun trying to dismantle the police state that the GOP so heedlessly and enthusiastically created, and he didn't. Instead they refused to enter the lists to push back against the far right rhetoric of endless religious war and presumption of guilt levied on the citizenry.

      If you are the same man in the room, and you go along with everything the insane man does out of fear, you deserve some of the blame for what happens. If you want to avoid the criticism, stand up and fight the insane man.
      Bernie Sanders said no. Paul Wellstone would've said no. I think we may have had a better debate if they hadn't knocked him off.
      **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

      Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
      Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

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      • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

        Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
        Bernie Sanders said no.
        And if Bernie ran I'd support him, to make Hillary face the issue. We have that power, at least.
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        • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

          Originally posted by Kepler View Post
          If you are the sane man in the room, but you go along with everything the insane man does, you deserve some of the blame for what happens. If you want to avoid the criticism, stand up and fight the insane man.
          You were doing fine up until this sentence.

          1) Saddam threat was said to be imminent. There was no time to drag out the process based on what we now know are doctored intelligence reports saying he had all of these weapons already. Few people conceived of such a concerted effort to make up evidence. I don't blame them for making that decision based on what they had in front of them. Bush/Cheney etc fooled a lot of people around the world, not just those with a (D) after their names.

          2) Dems once in a position of power ended torture. Again, full extent was not known, and only remedy as minority party would be to go through the courts. Until Jan 2007, Dems had no investigation powers.

          3) No one has been sent to Gitmo since Obama took office and population is slowly shrinking. I too would like to see more done in terms of this, as well as other civil liberties protections so point taken. My guess is its going to be awhile before that happens no matter who's in office due to new threats popping up like ISIS, etc.
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          • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

            Funny (albeit bitter).
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            • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

              Originally posted by Rover View Post
              3) No one has been sent to Gitmo since Obama took office and population is slowly shrinking. I too would like to see more done in terms of this, as well as other civil liberties protections so point taken. My guess is its going to be awhile before that happens no matter who's in office due to new threats popping up like ISIS, etc.
              I hope so, but I think you're ignoring history. It's like arming a police department with military equipment -- they'll find a "need" for it. Since 2001 we have built an enormous, opaque surveillance, seizure, interrogation, punishment system, which would fit equally well against domestic or foreign targets. It's already been widely abused by the IC. It will continue to grow stronger and more dangerous until we end it. The situation it was ostensibly built to counter -- international terrorism -- is permanent. So we will never "win" and then be able to disarm the police state in our midst in safety; we will have to replace it on the fly with a controlled, transparent system even as the threats we face continue to exist. America has never done anything that courageous.
              Last edited by Kepler; 09-15-2014, 11:38 AM.
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              • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

                Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                My inner civil libertarian says no, that power is too strong to be granted to the state which, as we've recently seen, is so readily hijacked by the grifter or the criminally insane.
                Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi? Boehner and McConnell? any long-serving career politician could just as easily fit here.
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                • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

                  Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
                  There is nothing in existence today that helps me sleep at night.
                  sounds like you need a better pharmacist....
                  "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                  "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                  "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                  "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

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                  • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

                    Dear Lindsey Graham,

                    Read this http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/11/wo...=WT.mc_id&_r=0

                    then tell me why we should bother with ANYTHING over there. Anything. For once let's let these 12th century morons take care of it themselves.

                    Regards,
                    ScoobyDoo

                    EDIT:

                    Great quote from Friedman.
                    We keep making this story about us, about Obama, about what we do. But it is not about us. It is about them and who they want to be. It’s about a pluralistic region that lacks pluralism and needs to learn how to coexist. It’s the 21st century. It’s about time.
                    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/op...mlukp=WT.mc_id
                    Last edited by ScoobyDoo; 09-15-2014, 12:25 PM.
                    **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                    Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                    Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

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                    • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

                      I'm more dem than gop, and ISIS is not good news. But to what extent is the hype re: ISIS a political one to deflect a focus from Russia and/or to boost popularity? ISIS is getting too much of a microscope at this point.
                      Go Gophers!

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                      • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

                        Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
                        Dear Lindsey Graham,

                        Read this http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/11/wo...=WT.mc_id&_r=0

                        then tell me why we should bother with ANYTHING over there. Anything. For once let's let these 12th century morons take care of it themselves.

                        Regards,
                        ScoobyDoo

                        EDIT:

                        Great quote from Friedman.


                        http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/op...mlukp=WT.mc_id
                        That is just insane. I agree we need to stay out of this regional problem. These people are just chiding us into doing something stupid so they can get more PR victims and give us more blame for something we didn't do. If we just ignore them, what are they going to do? If you are a Western civilian and choose not to get out of that region, too bad for you. If I were there, I'd get the blank out ASAP.

                        There's no way my 18 yr old son is getting drafted and sent off to some pointless conflict that does not involve directly defending our North American soil. It's hard to trust any president after what W did to us with all the Iraq WMD B.S. and then totally screwing up in Afghanistan. I do applaud Obama on how he has handled things so far in regards to the Middle East.
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                        • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

                          Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                          sounds like you need a better pharmacist....
                          ...or to get laid.

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                          • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

                            Originally posted by Timothy A View Post
                            There's no way my 18 yr old son is getting drafted and sent off to some pointless conflict that does not involve directly defending our North American soil.

                            Agreed.

                            As I've told him, someone invades here or if space aliens show up, I'll grab a weapon and stand with him.

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                            • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

                              Pretty good very high level view of two interesting social-psychological tendencies among reactionaries: Right Wing Authoritarianism (RWA) and the Social Dominance Orientation (SDO). If it gets your back up trying to relate them to American politics, use the Germans or the Japanese as proxies.

                              As with everything, your mileage may vary, these are tendencies not rigid typologies, your sweet Auntie who votes straight ticket GOP is not implicated, etc. And as with everything, no doubt there are comparable monsters lurking on the other side of the spectrum.
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                              • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

                                Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                                Kepler's intent was obvious from Kepler's statement. Pio's bizarre interpretation is fascinating and a window onto whatever festering sore remains of his soul. Or it's just the desperate projections of an aged schoolyard bully, feebly fighting off the final forays of dementia. That isn't evil; it's just sad.
                                Advocating passing a law reinstating the draft which law would also insure the sons of people with whom you disagree would be placed in the front lines is what you wrote. If you'd like to back away from it now, feel free to do so. But that's what you suggested: the sons of your obsession (Neocons) should be placed in the front lines so as to make the fathers "think right" on these matters. You own it.

                                You and the rest of the peaceniks know bupkus about the military. However, you have learned the lesson of Vietnam and no longer publicly yearn for GI deaths and proudly carry the flags of our enemies. Instead you burble about "supporting the troops," by which you mean as long as they stay stateside. Otherwise, all bets are off.

                                Besides, you beg the question of whether Neocon fathers are as craven as you are. Where's your evidence?
                                Last edited by Old Pio; 09-15-2014, 04:37 PM.
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