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  • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

    Originally posted by joecct View Post
    That did not stop Woodrow Wilson. Nor did it give Abraham Lincoln pause; either.
    It didn't stop John Adams or FDR, either. And there's a whole wonderful history of Constitutional law mapping how in each case the courts walked back those limits.

    What appears to happen is this: as a threat is seen as real and significant, the public freaks out, the politicians forget the Constitution and shred the target's rights, the courts turn a blind eye until the hysteria passes and then reassert civil liberties. Basically, those First Amendment protections we all think make the US special and America free? Turns out they're very elastic.

    Now this doesn't sound like a very solid protection for our liberties, but it's worked OK up until now. For one thing, if the Court ever went up against the other two branches in a time of perceived national emergency, the public would turn against the court. Fear turns any public into a mass of gibbering idiots, so the only way for the system not to seize up is to let the demagogues have their way for a time. If we ever see another major terrorist attack on US soil American Muslims are going to wish they were 40's Japanese Americans. We already saw a wave of blind madness roll over the country after 9/11 which was shocking but, by standards of real destruction, nothing.

    We have been a free people mostly because we have been lucky. Whenever civil liberties have been tested against fear, civil liberties have lost until the fear has ebbed. The only consolation is I can't think of a country that has protected the bulk of its citizens' liberties for a larger proportion of the time. But then again I also can't think of a country that has had it so easy up till now.
    Last edited by Kepler; 09-04-2014, 07:21 AM.
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    • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

      I think some of you want to live in a black and white world like you imagine the Cold War era was like. Even though it wasn't, but that's not stopping several people from re-imagining it. Fact is, the world is messy. Its been messy for a long time. Get used to it.

      What people need more of for military action is skin in the game. Its real easy to say "bomb everybody" and then feel good about yourself. Problem is that doesn't work, as "Shock and Awe" should have taught you the hard way. Simply put, other countries need to learn to solve their own problems and stop expecting US troops and tax dollars to bail them out. People advocating that we fight wars for other people need to have themselves or their own kids volunteering to fight for their own cause. Iraq has to be the biggest, worst, most poorly planned, foolhardy war in US history. Why then would we take ANY advice from the people who pushed there in the first place, or their cheerleaders now who still can't admit their mistake?

      Every time an ISIS type groups gets out of hand, find some allies on the ground as long as they're less odious, and then bombs away with air power and drones. But that's it: the govt of those countries then needs to get a handle on things. No troops, no nation building, no long term US presence. Just the threat that if things ever get out of hand, we'll be there to eliminate the problem. Over the long run however, as Israel has painfully learned, you can't bomb your way to security. Eventually the people in the conflict area be it Ukraine, Somalia, Libya, Iraq, Syria, etc need to get it together much like what happened in the former Yugoslavia. The US can't do that for them.
      Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

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      • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

        Originally posted by solovsfett View Post
        The Imam's who incite violence and murder, Jihad etc., they must be dealt with. Instead of popping off and putting words into my mouth why don't you respond with what should be done about this problem. And it is a very real problem. So what's your solution to the problem of Imam's inciting violence and murder?
        Why? You're just playing whack a mole. There are a lot of countries in the world these guys can find safe haven and spout their filth and capture Americans. Until the countries who insist on living in the dark ages in the 21st century start moving on it's going to stay like this no matter what we do.

        We never seem to learn from history.

        The film, including an unusual interview with former Secretary of State Henry A. Kissinger and rare footage of courageous rescues — some conducted as “black operations” against the orders of American officials — carries lessons on Iraq and Afghanistan, she said. “You need to think, when you get involved in wars, how you’re going to get out of them.”
        http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/31/mo...tary.html?_r=0
        Last edited by ScoobyDoo; 09-04-2014, 08:37 AM.
        **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

        Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
        Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

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        • Originally posted by Kepler View Post
          It didn't stop John Adams or FDR, either. And there's a whole wonderful history of Constitutional law mapping how in each case the courts walked back those limits.

          What appears to happen is this: as a threat is seen as real and significant, the public freaks out, the politicians forget the Constitution and shred the target's rights, the courts turn a blind eye until the hysteria passes and then reassert civil liberties. Basically, those First Amendment protections we all think make the US special and America free? Turns out they're very elastic.

          Now this doesn't sound like a very solid protection for our liberties, but it's worked OK up until now. For one thing, if the Court ever went up against the other two branches in a time of perceived national emergency, the public would turn against the court. Fear turns any public into a mass of gibbering idiots, so the only way for the system not to seize up is to let the demagogues have their way for a time. If we ever see another major terrorist attack on US soil American Muslims are going to wish they were 40's Japanese Americans. We already saw a wave of blind madness roll over the country after 9/11 which was shocking but, by standards of real destruction, nothing.

          We have been a free people mostly because we have been lucky. Whenever civil liberties have been tested against fear, civil liberties have lost until the fear has ebbed. The only consolation is I can't think of a country that has protected the bulk of its citizens' liberties for a larger proportion of the time. But then again I also can't think of a country that has had it so easy up till now.
          Want to add the Patriot Act and Homeland Security to the list? I would.
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          • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

            Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
            Nah. It's much easier to pontificate...
            Oh, the irony...

            Comment


            • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

              To me, one of the (if not the) most important considerations is to prevent any further terrorist attacks on US soil. So far, 0bama's administration has been successful at that goal.

              I thought that the concept of engaging terrorists overseas, keeping them bottled up and busy fighting there and preventing them from having a safe haven, was quite shrewd. Unfortunately, the execution of that concept left a great deal to be desired.

              Had 0bama any strategic sense, he'd have found a way to reject his predecessor's problems with execution while he kept the concept active (let's give him credit, he did keep the hunt for bin Laden at high heat until it succeeded).

              People have asked me, "what would [I] do?" If allowed, I'd go back to the Green Revolution in Iran in 2009. When 0bama was first elected, I wanted him to do well. Given that most politicians exaggerate, I hoped that if he lived up to 1/3 of what he promised, we'd be okay. Yet when the everyday people of Iran rose up against the theocrat thugs, he was passive and silent. I wasn't alone in wondering at the time, "what is wrong with him? this is one of the best opportunities we'll ever have to make the world a safer place!" I'd have done as much as I could, both overtly and covertly, to support the Iranian democrats, and have tried to engender as much international support for them as I could.

              His failure to act in that instance was just part of a string of voting "present" when decisive action (defensible decisive action) would have made a crucial difference. There is a compounding effect in public affairs. You are seen as a bit weak, someone tests you, you fail that test, you get tested some more, you fail that test too, and then you have a real serious mess on your hands.

              Now ISIS is actively recruiting US citizens with the express intent of sending them here to carry out terror attacks on US soil. Yet he still equivocates!

              Number one job of the Commander in Chief is to protect the US against attack. They have declared outright war on us. Whether we like it or not, that means we are at war. No amount of denial nor equivocation will change that. They are going to keep attacking.

              It makes no sense to me to be at war and not fight to win. Anything less leaves us exposed to way too much risk otherwise.
              "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

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              • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

                Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                So far, 0bama's administration has been successful at that goal.
                He uttered, through clenched teeth.

                "0bama", is that really what passes for Republican humor now? I liked it better when hardcore righties were calling him, "The One" - much funnier. Even "The Half-rican", was at least a racist guilty pleasure.

                Comment


                • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

                  Originally posted by joecct View Post
                  Want to add the Patriot Act and Homeland Security to the list? I would.
                  Of course.

                  DHS is a problem because once created all institutions, from banks to bookies, perpetuate themselves and enlarge their scope. This also happened with the FBI and CIA and every other one of the 17 US intel agencies. This is one of the places where the Small Gubmint crowd should be listened to -- these entities can only expand their power by curtailing Americans' freedom, and they do it wrapped up in the flag, the cross, and WONT SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!

                  Adulthood is tough and one of its challenges is to navigate a complicated and at times threatening world without either hippie-dipping through life with your front door open or huddling in your shelter clutching your guns and Bibles. America faces the same problem now as an adult country, and the demagogues will always be out there pressing for the latter posture. The adults among us have to push back that both freedom and security are essential components of a worthwhile life. Either without the other is hell.
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                  • Originally posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
                    He uttered, through clenched teeth.

                    "0bama", is that really what passes for Republican humor now? I liked it better when hardcore righties were calling him, "The One" - much funnier. Even "The Half-rican", was at least a racist guilty pleasure.
                    Yeah, I don't get that one. This board's Fark Independent (tm) pretends to be some intellectually astute wannabe, then throws crap like that around ruining his entire rant. It's not clever, it reads like a teenager's text message, and outs himself as a troll as though we didn't already know that.

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                    • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

                      Originally posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
                      "0bama", is that really what passes for Republican humor now?
                      They just can't do humor. Humor requires humility. They can only do hatred, as it requires nothing but conceit.
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                      • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

                        Originally posted by unofan View Post
                        Yeah, I don't get that one. This board's Fark Independent (tm) pretends to be some intellectually astute wannabe, then throws crap like that around ruining his entire rant. It's not clever, it reads like a teenager's text message, and outs himself as a troll as though we didn't already know that.
                        I may disagree with FF off and on. But at least the guy engages, advances POV and isn't all lather. IMO...
                        Go Gophers!

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                        • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

                          Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                          I may disagree with FF off and on. But at least the guy engages, advances POV and isn't all lather. IMO...
                          Well, if you allow for "his" POV being whatever is on the front page of Drudge that morning.

                          FF is the only poster I have ever read who I have thought "this might actually be a bot."
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                          • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

                            Problem with Fishy is his post is nonsense. Once again, he's not advocating anything, just a litany of complaints. Frankly, the man hasn't been the same since Mittens spit the bit the last election.

                            So, I'm not sure what exactly the Iran "Green Revolution" was supposed to do in terms of containing ISIS and Fishy doesn't bother to enlighen us, nor does he say what possible influence the US could have on Iranian domestic politics. Beyond that, there's vague platitudes about "fighting a war to win" (no sh ! t Sherlock, who fights a war to lose?) and other such stupidity but again, no suggestions no actions no solutions. Just talk.

                            I for one like Fishy's contributions to the board. He really does sum up modern Republican conservative thought. Lots of complaints, lots of juvenile rants out of old middle aged people, but no answers.
                            Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                            Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                            "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

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                            • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

                              Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                              They just can't do humor. Humor requires humility. They can only do hatred, as it requires nothing but conceit.
                              Is that liberal nuance? Or just the snarling face of the left? Is there a difference?
                              2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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                              • Re: The Global War on Terror 5.0: Putin on the Risk

                                Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
                                Is that liberal nuance? Or just the snarling face of the left? Is there a difference?
                                The Burroughs expression was "the mean pinched hate-filled faces of decent church-going women."

                                If you're gonna do it, do it right.
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