50 years later. And the only consensus is: ABO--anybody but Oswald

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: 50 years later. And the only consensus is: ABO--anybody but Oswald

Former FBI people say they had extensive (illegal) wiretaps on the mob. In those days they were much less sophisticated than they ultimately became about such matters. And ever though these guys discussed capital crimes like little league results, there was never a mention of killing JFK.

Given that J. Edgar Hoover was still very much in charge of the FBI in 1963, I'm inclined to believe it.

[The Rube]

Re: 50 years later. And the only consensus is: ABO--anybody but Oswald

Former FBI people say they had extensive (illegal) wiretaps on the mob. In those days they were much less sophisticated than they ultimately became about such matters. And ever though these guys discussed capital crimes like little league results, there was never a mention of killing JFK.

They were illegal, that is true. And this book...it really does not pull punches for or against the gub'ment, nor the Mob.

[Old Pio]

Re: 50 years later. And the only consensus is: ABO--anybody but Oswald

There was mention of a mob connection in the book "The Five Families" (which is an EXCELLENT book on the history of the NY Mafia). It never said outright, nor did the people interviewed for the book say outright, that the mob was connected, but there WAS a lot of hemming and hawing about a connection/knowledge of some sort of contract. This included current and ex-mobsters at the time of the book.

Former FBI people say they had extensive (illegal) wiretaps on the mob. In those days they were much less sophisticated than they ultimately became about such matters. And ever though these guys discussed capital crimes like little league results, there was never a mention of killing JFK.

[solovsfett]

Re: 50 years later. And the only consensus is: ABO--anybody but Oswald

with regard to the handling of the rifle...man I'm very surprised anyone's prints could be lifted with any veracity at all when you've had at least from what I can tell from the NatGeo video 3-5 guys handling the rifle with bare hands

[solovsfett]

Re: 50 years later. And the only consensus is: ABO--anybody but Oswald

There have been several documentaries showing the so-called "magic" bullet wasn't magic and certainly wasn't pristine. Connolly was sitting on a jump seat, lower than JFK and several inches inboard. He was turned to his right when he was struck. And was perfectly lined up with a shot from the depository that passed through JFK. Most of us think we "know" what happens when people are struck by bullets, based on what we see in movies and on TV. Any big city emergency room physician can tell you stories about the weird things bullets do when they strike humans. And two people being struck by one bullet is hardly remarkable. Similarly, any bullet fired from the "grassy knoll" would have left an exit wound on the left side of JFK's head (which there wasn't) and surely would have struck Mrs. Kennedy in the face.

The use of gloves wasn't SOP 50 years ago. Oswald's prints were found on the rifle (not entirely surprising since it was his) and on boxes in the sniper's nest. You aren't suggesting that somebody else fired Oswald's rifle, are you? All bullets recovered in Dealey Plaza were matched to Oswald's rifle to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world.

Ruby was a police "buff." He ran an adult business in Texas half a century ago. As such, he was potentially vulnerable to the police. He made it his business to be as popular with cops as possible--comping them admission, booze, food and possibly more to keep the cops from shutting him down. He was known to bring sandwiches to cops in the station and to hang out there. His presence during the biggest cop story in Dallas history doesn't necessarily constitute "casing."

If Ruby were contracted to wipeout Oswald (highly unlikely given his erratic personality) why didn't he do it on Friday before Oswald had been interrogated for hours? On the day he shot Oswald, Ruby was downtown to wire money to one of his "dancers." The Western Union receipt was time stamped just a few minutes before he shot Oswald. And he brought his dog along with him on his errand. If he were going to do a "hit" on someone (knowing that he was surely going to be arrested or killed), why bring a pet? Oswald took a few minutes to change clothes before being brought out, if he hadn't done that, Ruby wouldn't have been there in time. The complete films of the shooting show a police car being backed into position to hold Oswald just as Ruby jumped from the crowd and fired. Five seconds later and he wouldn't have been able to get the shot off. Ruby was a nutbar, with a violent, borderline personality. All of these indisputable facts argue that Ruby acted on impulse, not premeditation. Notwithstanding any speculation by anyone.

As I say, your suspicions about why he was there or why he shot may or may not be accurate, but they are not evidence. There is no evidence that Ruby even went downtown with the intent of killing Oswald, let alone that he did it on "orders." And if somebody "ordered" Ruby to kill Oswald, why didn't they "order" somebody to kill Ruby? For exactly the same reasons?

Your "assassination plot" scenarios are speculation, not evidence. While they are certainly possible, there is no credible evidence pointing to anyone but Oswald. You're aware, are you not, that Oswald had previously taken a shot at General Walker (a prominent far right figure of the time)? He was a "wretched waif" (as William Manchester described him) who wanted the world to realize how important he was. As I say, belief in JFK conspiracy theories is now like religion or belief in Sasquatch. No proof necessary.

this is why (in part) I'm less inclined to believe the official LHO thought it up and did it story. Because every couple of years someone who "knows" or has presumably locked up the case comes out a with book or re-review of the sniper's angle and re-enacts the whole thing to prove there was no magic bullet or that LHO could do it in 6 seconds etc (much the same as the conspiracy guys as well, of course), and it tells me that if the case was so cut and dried/locked up...why are they spending so much time and money on what amounts to a propaganda campaign to ensure the public LHO did it? the fact the government has tried so hard to convince people of their story has me skeptical. Who in the end is paying for moving street lights etc back to their original positions in 1963 to get these tests done ad nauseum? the last test I saw (was it pbs?) the sniper's 2nd shot hit a light post and not concrete, it was pretty interesting stuff (I suppose if you re-ran it w/the original players it would turn out differently each time though) point is... if they've got their man why do they care about what I or anyone else thinks?

I can't claim to know what happened on 11-22-63 in dallas and I feel like no-one really can.

I don't know about pristine bullet any more than I know about the fact there wasn't a 2nd shooter. Where is the bullet and a place I can see the entire thing (the bullet) btw?

Tying LHO to Tippitt seemed an egregious error. As I recall it eyewitnesses described a heavy-set man who shot the cop then was picked up in a car and left?

but I digress, what we have not much of are facts, what we have a lot of is opinion or speculation. Sadly, that's where it ends I guess

[joecct]

Re: 50 years later. And the only consensus is: ABO--anybody but Oswald

Oswald wasn't even arrested for shooting Kennedy, but rather some other officer in the building at the time.

RIP Dorothy Kilgallen, the women who had it figured out, but was murdered by the government.

The other officer was J. D. Tippit. From Wiki

On November 22, 1963, J.D. Tippit was working beat number 78, his normal patrol area in south Oak Cliff, a residential area of Dallas.[6] At 12:45 p.m., 15 minutes after the President's assassination, Tippit received a radio order to move to the central Oak Cliff area as part of a concentration of police around the center of the city. At 12:54 Tippit radioed that he had moved as directed. By then several messages had been broadcast describing a suspect in the Kennedy assassination[7] as a slender white male, in his early thirties, 5 feet 10 inches (1.78 m) tall, and weighing about 165 pounds (75 kg). Oswald was a slender white male, 24 years old, 5 feet 9 inches (1.75 m) tall, and an estimated weight of 150 pounds (68 kg) pounds at autopsy.[8]

According to the Warren Commission, at approximately 1:11–1:14 p.m.,[9] Tippit was driving slowly eastward on East 10th Street when — about 100 feet (30 m) past the intersection of 10th Street and Patton Avenue — he pulled alongside a man who resembled the broadcast description of Lee Harvey Oswald.[10][11] The man walked over to Tippit's car and apparently exchanged words with him through an open vent window.[12] Tippit opened his car door and as he walked toward the front of the car, the man drew a handgun and fired three shots in rapid succession, all three bullets hitting Tippit in the chest. The man then walked up to Tippit's fallen body and fired a fourth shot directly into his right temple, fatally wounding him. Tippit was dead before any help could arrive and Oswald was later arrested after "acting suspiciously" by appearing nervous as police sirens neared him and by ducking into the Texas Theatre without buying a ticket.

[The Rube]

Re: 50 years later. And the only consensus is: ABO--anybody but Oswald

There was mention of a mob connection in the book "The Five Families" (which is an EXCELLENT book on the history of the NY Mafia). It never said outright, nor did the people interviewed for the book say outright, that the mob was connected, but there WAS a lot of hemming and hawing about a connection/knowledge of some sort of contract. This included current and ex-mobsters at the time of the book.

[Old Pio]

Re: 50 years later. And the only consensus is: ABO--anybody but Oswald

And somehow, he still missed the first shot. Seems odd for such an alleged deadeye, unless perhaps he lacked practice with moving targets.

For the record, I believe Oswald acted alone.

The current thinking is the "missing" shot came much earlier and was deflected by a traffic signal. It was probably on target. As you know, conspiracists go to great lengths to downplay his marksmanship. In JFK Walter Matthau says (paraphrasing) "He got Maggie's drawers. It means he wasn't any good." Well, he was classified a Sharpshooter. Hit 97 out of 100 from 200 yards at the rifle range, using a rifle without a scope. I'm pretty proud that in the AF I hit 60 out of 60 from 100 yards.

Besides, even if he was a horrible shot, bad shooters can get lucky. Every year your local paper carries stories about duffers who scored aces on daily fee courses. What those stories usually don't tell you is the guy had an 8 on the hole before the ace and a 7 on the next hole. I think Oswald had the requisite skills to make the shots. They weren't that difficult, in fact.

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: 50 years later. And the only consensus is: ABO--anybody but Oswald

Were you taken by how small the place is? That's what a friend of mine who also visited there says was his first impression. Much has been made of how "difficult" the shots had to be. Oswald routinely fired (and scored well) from 200 yards away. None of the shots in Dallas was that long.

And somehow, he still missed the first shot. Seems odd for such an alleged deadeye, unless perhaps he lacked practice with moving targets.

For the record, I believe Oswald acted alone.

[Old Pio]

Re: 50 years later. And the only consensus is: ABO--anybody but Oswald

Visited Dealey Plaza a couple years ago. The book depository is now a museum with a view out the window. There's also a white X in the middle of the street where Kennedy was hit, and you would not believe the number of morans who run out into traffic to stand on it for pictures (the street right there merges onto a fairly fast freeway to boot.) The grassy knoll is right next to a parking lot which is in full use. It must be haunting as hell to have to park there every day.

Were you taken by how small the place is? That's what a friend of mine who also visited there says was his first impression. Much has been made of how "difficult" the shots had to be. Oswald routinely fired (and scored well) from 200 yards away. None of the shots in Dallas was that long.

[Old Pio]

Re: 50 years later. And the only consensus is: ABO--anybody but Oswald

The biggest fallacy with conspiracy theories is the natural inclination for humans, especially criminals, to brag, talk, etc.

If Oswald or Ruby were part of conspiracy odds are they would've ratted guys out and the whole ring gets rolled up.

Just ponder for a moment how big this "conspiracy" had to be. It had to be big enough to get Oswald turned down for the jobs he applied for prior to being hired on at the SBD. And it had to get him hired on at the SBD before JFK's Texas trip and the motorcade route had even been announced.

Even as we were spending billions of dollars on the Manhattan Project, Julius and Ethel (and others) were busily sending our nuclear secrets to Russia. When Truman told Stalin at Potsdam of the Trinity explosion, Stalin already knew it. Yet this massive conspiracy to assassinate, then cover up the murder of a president, which had to involve hundreds of people, has held together for half a century. Frankly, Scarlet, I don't believe it.

[Jimjamesak]

Re: 50 years later. And the only consensus is: ABO--anybody but Oswald

The biggest fallacy with conspiracy theories is the natural inclination for humans, especially criminals, to brag, talk, etc.

If Oswald or Ruby were part of conspiracy odds are they would've ratted guys out and the whole ring gets rolled up.

[Old Pio]

Re: 50 years later. And the only consensus is: ABO--anybody but Oswald

I haven't read of the techniques that demolished any non LHO theories but I did recently watch the NatGeo special "The Lost JFK Tapes: The Assassination"

a couple of things really stood out to me

1. the police were all handling the rifle with bare hands including right there in the depository before prints would have been lifted presumably. after seeing that footage I would never believe they could get a print from LHO or anyone on that rifle as it was handled by numerous cops w/out gloves.

2. I don't know what Posner's theory is on Jack Ruby but Ruby is seen in this film at the police station casing Oswald out of one room and into another on Saturday. I believe he was there to silence LHO and obviously since JR was there saturday it sort of blows up the whole patriot who showed up on sunday to kill LHO. The radio or tv personality talking about LHO's murder says that there was not 1 cop in the building who felt the murder was anything other than an effort to silence LHO.

I don't propose to know what happened but of the prevailing theories I guess I lean toward one

- LHO thought this up and did it himself
- LHO was part of a group who discussed (perhaps even planned) the assassination, he pulled the trigger (the only gunman that day) then was silenced
- LHO was part of a group who discussed and planned the assassination and he was one of two or three shooters

I'm leaning toward the 2nd one

There have been several documentaries showing the so-called "magic" bullet wasn't magic and certainly wasn't pristine. Connolly was sitting on a jump seat, lower than JFK and several inches inboard. He was turned to his right when he was struck. And was perfectly lined up with a shot from the depository that passed through JFK. Most of us think we "know" what happens when people are struck by bullets, based on what we see in movies and on TV. Any big city emergency room physician can tell you stories about the weird things bullets do when they strike humans. And two people being struck by one bullet is hardly remarkable. Similarly, any bullet fired from the "grassy knoll" would have left an exit wound on the left side of JFK's head (which there wasn't) and surely would have struck Mrs. Kennedy in the face.

The use of gloves wasn't SOP 50 years ago. Oswald's prints were found on the rifle (not entirely surprising since it was his) and on boxes in the sniper's nest. You aren't suggesting that somebody else fired Oswald's rifle, are you? All bullets recovered in Dealey Plaza were matched to Oswald's rifle to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world.

Ruby was a police "buff." He ran an adult business in Texas half a century ago. As such, he was potentially vulnerable to the police. He made it his business to be as popular with cops as possible--comping them admission, booze, food and possibly more to keep the cops from shutting him down. He was known to bring sandwiches to cops in the station and to hang out there. His presence during the biggest cop story in Dallas history doesn't necessarily constitute "casing."

If Ruby were contracted to wipeout Oswald (highly unlikely given his erratic personality) why didn't he do it on Friday before Oswald had been interrogated for hours? On the day he shot Oswald, Ruby was downtown to wire money to one of his "dancers." The Western Union receipt was time stamped just a few minutes before he shot Oswald. And he brought his dog along with him on his errand. If he were going to do a "hit" on someone (knowing that he was surely going to be arrested or killed), why bring a pet? Oswald took a few minutes to change clothes before being brought out, if he hadn't done that, Ruby wouldn't have been there in time. The complete films of the shooting show a police car being backed into position to hold Oswald just as Ruby jumped from the crowd and fired. Five seconds later and he wouldn't have been able to get the shot off. Ruby was a nutbar, with a violent, borderline personality. All of these indisputable facts argue that Ruby acted on impulse, not premeditation. Notwithstanding any speculation by anyone.

As I say, your suspicions about why he was there or why he shot may or may not be accurate, but they are not evidence. There is no evidence that Ruby even went downtown with the intent of killing Oswald, let alone that he did it on "orders." And if somebody "ordered" Ruby to kill Oswald, why didn't they "order" somebody to kill Ruby? For exactly the same reasons?

Your "assassination plot" scenarios are speculation, not evidence. While they are certainly possible, there is no credible evidence pointing to anyone but Oswald. You're aware, are you not, that Oswald had previously taken a shot at General Walker (a prominent far right figure of the time)? He was a "wretched waif" (as William Manchester described him) who wanted the world to realize how important he was. As I say, belief in JFK conspiracy theories is now like religion or belief in Sasquatch. No proof necessary.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 50 years later. And the only consensus is: ABO--anybody but Oswald

Oswald wasn't even arrested for shooting Kennedy, but rather some other officer in the building at the time.

RIP Dorothy Kilgallen, the women who had it figured out, but was murdered by the government.

[solovsfett]

Re: 50 years later. And the only consensus is: ABO--anybody but Oswald

I haven't read of the techniques that demolished any non LHO theories but I did recently watch the NatGeo special "The Lost JFK Tapes: The Assassination"

a couple of things really stood out to me

1. the police were all handling the rifle with bare hands including right there in the depository before prints would have been lifted presumably. after seeing that footage I would never believe they could get a print from LHO or anyone on that rifle as it was handled by numerous cops w/out gloves.

2. I don't know what Posner's theory is on Jack Ruby but Ruby is seen in this film at the police station casing Oswald out of one room and into another on Saturday. I believe he was there to silence LHO and obviously since JR was there saturday it sort of blows up the whole patriot who showed up on sunday to kill LHO. The radio or tv personality talking about LHO's murder says that there was not 1 cop in the building who felt the murder was anything other than an effort to silence LHO.

I don't propose to know what happened but of the prevailing theories I guess I lean toward one

- LHO thought this up and did it himself
- LHO was part of a group who discussed (perhaps even planned) the assassination, he pulled the trigger (the only gunman that day) then was silenced
- LHO was part of a group who discussed and planned the assassination and he was one of two or three shooters

I'm leaning toward the 2nd one