Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

I assume you meant me.

We were actually looking long and hard at a job offer my wife had in Sweden after CERN, but we would have been financially *much* worse off after taxes had we moved there. The only things that would have made it come close to making sense would have been 1) if we'd had kids (the childcare subsidies are nuts - 490 days of shared parental leave, $100 per month for subsidized childcare, etc) or 2) if we were definitely planning to remain in Sweden the rest of our careers and retire there (again, retiree benefits are great). Since we couldn't say for sure that we would be able to take advantage of either of those pay-outs, it didn't make any sense for us to move there and start paying-in. "Federal" income taxes there don't kick in until after about $90K in income (after which it's ~50%), but "state" income tax is ~25% (depending which state you live in) and that starts on your very first dollar earned, no exemptions.

Oh, and the salaries for engineers/scientists were roughly 66% of what I can command in the US, with cost of living roughly on par with LA or Boston. Between the lower salary and higher taxes, it's just no contest.

Funny. From what I hear around here were being taxed to death. Now you're saying it's worse somewhere else even after Obama's SOCIALISM? My God, how do they survive over there??

[XYZ]

Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

I assume you meant me.

Oh crap, yes. Sorry about that.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

I assume you meant me.

We were actually looking long and hard at a job offer my wife had in Sweden after CERN, but we would have been financially *much* worse off after taxes had we moved there. The only things that would have made it come close to making sense would have been 1) if we'd had kids (the childcare subsidies are nuts - 490 days of shared parental leave, $100 per month for subsidized childcare, etc) or 2) if we were definitely planning to remain in Sweden the rest of our careers and retire there (again, retiree benefits are great). Since we couldn't say for sure that we would be able to take advantage of either of those pay-outs, it didn't make any sense for us to move there and start paying-in. "Federal" income taxes there don't kick in until after about $90K in income (after which it's ~50%), but "state" income tax is ~25% (depending which state you live in) and that starts on your very first dollar earned, no exemptions.

Oh, and the salaries for engineers/scientists were roughly 66% of what I can command in the US, with cost of living roughly on par with LA or Boston. Between the lower salary and higher taxes, it's just no contest.

Spent about 5 years in Europe myself.

1) Nearly all of differences between Europe and the US result from cultural and not tax differences.
2) I loved living in Europe and would move back for almost no reason. I'm sure its more expensive...but all places where people want to live are more expensive...the more in demand, the more expensive.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

Spent about 5 years in Europe myself.

1) Nearly all of differences between Europe and the US result from cultural and not tax differences.
2) I loved living in Europe and would move back for almost no reason. I'm sure its more expensive...but all places where people want to live are more expensive...the more in demand, the more expensive.

Please do.

[LynahFan]

Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

Spent about 5 years in Europe myself.

1) Nearly all of differences between Europe and the US result from cultural and not tax differences.
2) I loved living in Europe and would move back for almost no reason. I'm sure its more expensive...but all places where people want to live are more expensive...the more in demand, the more expensive.

I loved living there, too, but you're on crack if you think there are "nearly" no tax differences. You make $120K in Sweden, and you're going to pay .25*90 + .5*(30) = $37.5K (31% overall, with no possibility for deductions) just in income tax, not to mention VAT, property tax, etc. The more you make, the closer your overall tax rate will get to 50%. If you can find anyone who pays 31% or more in overall income tax in the US, please introduce him to me so I can knock some sense into his head. With deductions, 401K, mortgage interest, etc, my US income tax bill (state + federal) is generally around 20%. Maybe an extra 11% isn't a big deal to you (either because you make enough not to care or you make so little that 11% really is nothing), but it definitely matters to me.

[joecct]

Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

I loved living there, too, but you're on crack if you think there are "nearly" no tax differences. You make $120K in Sweden, and you're going to pay .25*90 + .5*(30) = $37.5K (31% overall, with no possibility for deductions) just in income tax, not to mention VAT, property tax, etc. The more you make, the closer your overall tax rate will get to 50%. If you can find anyone who pays 31% or more in overall income tax in the US, please introduce him to me so I can knock some sense into his head. With deductions, 401K, mortgage interest, etc, my US income tax bill (state + federal) is generally around 20%. Maybe an extra 11% isn't a big deal to you (either because you make enough not to care or you make so little that 11% really is nothing), but it definitely matters to me.

But think of the goodies the government gives you to enable your happiness!

Which, I suppose, is the difference in our Republic and European countries. We allow you to pursue happiness, they want you to be happy and will try to ensure it?????????

[pirate]

But think of the goodies the government gives you to enable your happiness!

Which, I suppose, is the difference in our Republic and European countries. We allow you to pursue happiness, they want you to be happy and will try to ensure it?????????

Most of them don't look happy...and some who might by typically thought of as happy reside in PIGS.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

I loved living there, too, but you're on crack if you think there are "nearly" no tax differences. You make $120K in Sweden, and you're going to pay .25*90 + .5*(30) = $37.5K (31% overall, with no possibility for deductions) just in income tax, not to mention VAT, property tax, etc. The more you make, the closer your overall tax rate will get to 50%. If you can find anyone who pays 31% or more in overall income tax in the US, please introduce him to me so I can knock some sense into his head. With deductions, 401K, mortgage interest, etc, my US income tax bill (state + federal) is generally around 20%. Maybe an extra 11% isn't a big deal to you (either because you make enough not to care or you make so little that 11% really is nothing), but it definitely matters to me.

Not my point. My point was that when you look around and see the products, services, attitudes and lifestyles...really nearly every visible aspect of society is driven by differences in culture. Any tax outcomes are nearly invisible...that includes double for Europe's high quality of life. Does Europe have the same number of multi millionaires as the US? Probably not. Does Europe have the same number of homeless? Probably not. Europe seems to do just fine with its tax structure.

Most of them don't look happy...and some who might by typically thought of as happy reside in PIGS.

I think that's more wishful thinking on your part than reality. Europe does just fine there also. World's happiest countries:

1) Norway
2) Denmark
3) Sweden
4) Australia
5) New Zealand
6) Canada
7) Finland
8) Netherlands
9) Switzerland
10) Ireland

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mef45jgim/1-norway/

[LynahFan]

Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

Not my point. My point was that when you look around and see the products, services, attitudes and lifestyles...really nearly every visible aspect of society is driven by differences in culture. Any tax outcomes are nearly invisible...that includes double for Europe's high quality of life. Does Europe have the same number of multi millionaires as the US? Probably not. Does Europe have the same number of homeless? Probably not. Europe seems to do just fine with its tax structure.

I really have no clue what you're trying to communicate. If you really think that paying all those extra taxes doesn't really result in any "visible" benefits, that sure seems like an argument AGAINST those higher taxes, yet you don't seem to care either way. And you're wrong about the homelessness - 3 million in Europe, about 1 million here, and they're only 2.5x the population of the US, so not only are there more there, they have a higher rate as well.

I think that's more wishful thinking on your part than reality. Europe does just fine there also. World's happiest countries:

1) Norway
2) Denmark
3) Sweden
4) Australia
5) New Zealand
6) Canada
7) Finland
8) Netherlands
9) Switzerland
10) Ireland

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mef45jgim/1-norway/

Ahhh...the bliss of low expectations. I don't care where you go or how far you travel, you'll never find anyone happier than a Brit who discovers an extra pat of butter with his scone.

[jerphisch]

Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

I really have no clue what you're trying to communicate. If you really think that paying all those extra taxes doesn't really result in any "visible" benefits, that sure seems like an argument AGAINST those higher taxes, yet you don't seem to care either way. And you're wrong about the homelessness - 3 million in Europe, about 1 million here, and they're only 2.5x the population of the US, so not only are there more there, they have a higher rate as well.

This is a pet peeve of mine...lumping all of Europe together and using it to make comparisons to the US. All of Europe is not created equal, and it's disingenous to make the comparison using it as a whole when you know he is really talking about Western Europe. The numbers may look the same or even worse for only Western Europe I have no idea, but lets not pretend that Germany, France and Switzerland are the same as Serbia, Estonia, and Bulgaria. My favorite case of this was our Congressman came to my work (this was pre passage of Obamacare) with charts showing the US's superior cancer survivability rate compared to Europe. It was something like 57% to 45%, but if you compare the US to Western Europe we fall somewhere right in the middle of the rankings, it was just Eastern Europe really dragging the average down.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

I really have no clue what you're trying to communicate. If you really think that paying all those extra taxes doesn't really result in any "visible" benefits, that sure seems like an argument AGAINST those higher taxes, yet you don't seem to care either way.

Nor does it have any visible detriment.

Ahhh...the bliss of low expectations.

It couldn't be that they have a different set of priorities. Did you say that you've been to Europe?

[LynahFan]

Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

It couldn't be that they have a different set of priorities. Did you say that you've been to Europe?

Priorities, expectations - call it what you like. They are "happy" making low wages, paying high taxes, and saving very little money, since they believe the government will care for them. They don't need their own personal safety nets, because the government has them covered. I prefer to have more control, so I'd much rather have higher salary, lower taxes, save more, and make my own choices of how to plan for my future.

I think that last was a rhetorical question, but just in case: In addition to 14 business trips to Europe, I lived in England for 2.5 years and Switzerland for 2.3 years, and have been to nearly every Western European country. Based on my experiences, the standard of living does not begin to compare to the US, regardless of what any given cherry-picked metric/poll may say. If you only ever lived one place your whole life, how do you know you wouldn't be happier someplace else?

[unofan]

I think that last was a rhetorical question, but just in case: In addition to 14 business trips to Europe, I lived in England for 2.5 years and Switzerland for 2.3 years, and have been to nearly every Western European country. Based on my experiences, the standard of living does not begin to compare to the US, regardless of what any given cherry-picked metric/poll may say. If you only ever lived one place your whole life, how do you know you wouldn't be happier someplace else?

Some of that depends on where in the US you're living. If you've never been west of the Mississippi or south of the Masob-Dixon line, you likely have a skewed view of living standards in this country. Likewise, if you've never spent significant time outside of the suburbs and gentrified urban areas, you're probably coming from a skewed perspective.

The US is surely better for the upper crust. Maybe even the upper middle crust. But for the other 80%, and especially the bottom 60%, I doubt it.

[jerphisch]

Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

Priorities, expectations - call it what you like. They are "happy" making low wages, paying high taxes, and saving very little money, since they believe the government will care for them. They don't need their own personal safety nets, because the government has them covered. I prefer to have more control, so I'd much rather have higher salary, lower taxes, save more, and make my own choices of how to plan for my future.

I think that last was a rhetorical question, but just in case: In addition to 14 business trips to Europe, I lived in England for 2.5 years and Switzerland for 2.3 years, and have been to nearly every Western European country. Based on my experiences, the standard of living does not begin to compare to the US, regardless of what any given cherry-picked metric/poll may say. If you only ever lived one place your whole life, how do you know you wouldn't be happier someplace else?

Serious question, how do you define standard of living? Strictly dollars and cents?

[5mn_Major]

Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

Priorities, expectations - call it what you like. They are "happy" making low wages, paying high taxes, and saving very little money, since they believe the government will care for them. They don't need their own personal safety nets, because the government has them covered. I prefer to have more control, so I'd much rather have higher salary, lower taxes, save more, and make my own choices of how to plan for my future.

Your opinion, which most Europeans don't share. Indeed there is no proof that the European tax code makes them less well off in terms of goods and services.

Sounds like you're just short of the time and range of Europe I've experienced. The reason I asked is that it sounds like you don't really understand Europeans at all (i.e., that they are just simpletons with low expectations).