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  • Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

    Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
    I was one of those teens who worked in the '70's. I did so for the usual reason -- to have money for gas, movies, etc...
    I must have been impressionable...I had jobs outside the home for pay starting around age 12 because that is what people did. I didn't really "need" the money. Getting a job was merely a standard part of life. You didn't really think about it, you just did it.

    I still have a copy of my first paycheck: $7.06, from delivering newspapers door to door one day a week. I worked through high school (when minimum wage was $1.60 / hour, although gasoline was $0.35 per gallon at that time as well), was an usher, a part-time janitor, among other things. In college I was part of "dorm crew" in which poor students cleaned rich students' bathrooms.

    Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
    But there was another factor. There really wasn't anything else to do then. There weren't any video games. We had three stations on the tv. I suppose you could go to the local bowling alley and play pinball. You either worked, or you hung out, and probably got in trouble.

    Too many other options for teenagers today, including what has essentially become year round sports participation. That's my theory for a large part of the change.
    Part of the change, it seems to me, is that parents now perceive the world to be a much more dangerous place (I'm sure in reality it isn't that much more dangerous, it's just that we now have broader news coverage of crimes that previously had only been reported locally).

    I had a bicycle in my middle school years and went everywhere on it. Once I was riding home from baseball practice and a hailstorm struck. A stranger in a station wagon offered me a ride home and I accepted. It was routine and matter-of-fact. Today, such things are completely unheard of. what parent today would let a middle-school kid ride their bicycle all over the place on their own without supervision??

    Another element that might well be in play: I recall reading an anthropological study somewhere about the duration of adolescence and how there was a correlation between how long adolescence lasted and the overall demand for unskilled labor in the job market (you alluded to a similar concept). Lots of teenagers just a few years older than me were drafted to serve in Vietnam war, and so there were more job openings then, and "kids grew up faster" in the sense that many people went right from high school into work and it was not all that typical that "everyone" went on to college.

    Then baby boomers started having kids and now those kids, having grown up, are clogging the job market opportunities for today's teens, and as a result, adolescence now lasts into early 20s for lots of young people.
    Last edited by FreshFish; 08-16-2014, 11:31 AM.
    "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

    "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

    "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

    "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

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    • Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

      I wonder if it also has something to do with the increase in 2-earner households now - according to the 2010 census, there are 33 million of them (out of 114M total) now. Not sure how many there were back in the 70s, but surely many fewer. There's a lot less urgency to earn your own petty cash if both parents are already pulling down full salaries.
      If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

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      • Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

        btw, here is historical federal minimum wage: http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/chart.htm

        and table 24 at this link http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpid1406.pdf gives a history of CPI-U, in case anyone wants to compare historical CPI with historical minimum wage. I might do it someday out of personal curiosity.


        Edit: if we take may 1974 as baseline, minimum wage has increased 362.5% while CPI-U has increased by 490.4%. If we look at an annualized rate of compounding, minimum wage is up 3.27% annualized while CPI-U is up 4.04% annualized. Given how much of a shift there has been in the labor market from unskilled labor to mechanization, that is not surprising.

        I think what confuses people the most when trying to discuss minimum wage is that no one is supposed to be able to raise a family on minimum wage. Substitute "internship" for minimum-wage job and you'll get a better sense of what I mean. Of course no one would expect to be able to support a family on an intern's salary, right?
        "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

        "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

        "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

        "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

        Comment


        • Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

          Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
          I wonder if it also has something to do with the increase in 2-earner households now - according to the 2010 census, there are 33 million of them (out of 114M total) now. Not sure how many there were back in the 70s, but surely many fewer. There's a lot less urgency to earn your own petty cash if both parents are already pulling down full salaries.
          Due to the number of single-parent homes, I would look less to two-earner households and more an female participation rates in the workforce. I know that seems chauvinist on its face, but when I did landscaping during college in the late 90's, of all the single-income homes only one had the husband home while the wife worked (cardiac surgeon). Also, and completely off the rails from this thread's topic, but when I did regression analysis for my senior thesis paper on conceal-carry permits and violent crime rates, the only variable that continually showed a direct causal effect was female participation rates in the workforce. As much as we fight it in the media and in conversations, if the family can afford it, it's better to have at least one parent home and one earning. Usually, that parent is the wife.
          "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

          "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

          "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

          Comment


          • Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

            Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
            if the family can afford it, it's better to have at least one parent home and one earning. Usually, that parent is the wife.
            even more ideally, if you have two parents who each are professionals and can arrange schedules in a complementary fashion so that each can earn based on, say 4 days worked per week, and then they also can superimpose schedules so that at least one is always engaged with child(ren) while the other is working....

            My parents were the traditional "dad earns money and abdicates responsibility for anything else while mom is totally overwhelmed" type of family. Very fortunate for me and my children that we were able to work out something different for them.

            even so, it has been interesting to observe how important a variable is personality.

            Some people always seem to overspend what they earn, no matter how much or how little it may be. Other people always seem able so save something on a regular basis, no matter how much or how little they earn.



            In retrospect, I am pleasantly surprised to see how much I had saved up before I went to college. I'm one of those people who doesn't need to spend money to be entertained.
            Last edited by FreshFish; 08-17-2014, 03:42 PM.
            "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

            "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

            "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

            "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

            Comment


            • Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

              You find me two jobs that allow you to work four days a week that don't involve flipping burgers and I will eat my hat
              Code:
              As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
              College Hockey 6       College Football 0
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              Originally posted by SanTropez
              May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
              Originally posted by bigblue_dl
              I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
              Originally posted by Kepler
              When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
              He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

              Comment


              • Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

                Just curious as to how many subscribe to Maslow's Hierarchy of Human Needs.

                My first criticism, immediately upon reading his list for the first time, was "what about sex?" but then I noticed that in subsequent formulations, they recast it so that sex was included after all.

                When I learned about it there were six levels not five. I like the way the wikipedia article has recast it compared to what I first learned about it.
                "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                Comment


                • Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

                  Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                  You find me two jobs that allow you to work four days a week that don't involve flipping burgers and I will eat my hat
                  My sister and brother-in-law did it - two kids 30 months apart and they've never paid a dime for child care. She's an engineer for an automotive components company and he's a financial planner - no burger flipping involved. They each worked ~32 hours per week, but the part they gave up was seeing each other - she was out of the house at 5 am, then they would meet a little after noon in a parking lot halfway between their offices, he'd hand off the kids, then he would work from 1 to 7 pm. He'd arrive just in time to help put the kids to bed, and then my sister would be off to bed herself so she'd be ready to rise again at 4 am. It's much easier now that the state babysits them 35 hours per week! (6th and 3rd grade)
                  If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

                  Comment


                  • Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

                    That sounds horrible.
                    Code:
                    As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
                    College Hockey 6       College Football 0
                    BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
                    Originally posted by SanTropez
                    May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                    Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                    I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                    Originally posted by Kepler
                    When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                    He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

                    Comment


                    • Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

                      I couldn't agree more - definitely not the choices I would make! For them, they felt that the tradeoffs were worth it so they could raise their own kids rather than "hiring strangers to do it for them."
                      If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

                      Comment


                      • Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

                        I don't think it's bad having someone else "raise your kids". That line of thinking is a bunch of bollocks. We went to daycare until we were older since we were open enrolled and both our parents worked. One of us is a chemical engineer and project manager and the other is in med school.

                        Different strokes I guess.
                        Code:
                        As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
                        College Hockey 6       College Football 0
                        BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
                        Originally posted by SanTropez
                        May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                        Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                        I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                        Originally posted by Kepler
                        When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                        He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

                        Comment


                        • Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

                          Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                          You find me two jobs that allow you to work four days a week that don't involve flipping burgers and I will eat my hat
                          One of my buddies did it. His wife is a nurse, works weekends and one night a week. She's a ".9" shift, so it's three twelve-hour shifts, which is common for nurses at hospitals. One of the grandparents would help out the remaining day when help was needed. Now that the kids are older, and they came to the realization that they didn't ever see each other and don't like that at all, she took a reduced schedule so they could see each other. Thankfully for them, my buddy had a really nice job where they could afford taking a hit to her wages and not have it affect them overly much.
                          "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                          "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                          "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

                          Comment


                          • Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

                            Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                            Due to the number of single-parent homes, I would look less to two-earner households and more an female participation rates in the workforce. I know that seems chauvinist on its face, but when I did landscaping during college in the late 90's, of all the single-income homes only one had the husband home while the wife worked (cardiac surgeon). Also, and completely off the rails from this thread's topic, but when I did regression analysis for my senior thesis paper on conceal-carry permits and violent crime rates, the only variable that continually showed a direct causal effect was female participation rates in the workforce. As much as we fight it in the media and in conversations, if the family can afford it, it's better to have at least one parent home and one earning. Usually, that parent is the wife.
                            I have heard that The Two Income Trap is all about this. (I could never get through it -- way too anecdotal for me.)
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                            • Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

                              Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                              I have heard that The Two Income Trap is all about this. (I could never get through it -- way too anecdotal for me.)
                              Love that book. Might be the best economics book written in the last 25 years. Not sure what you mean by anecdotal cause everything in that book has turned out to be either true or prophetic.
                              **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                              Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                              Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

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                              • Re: Weaving the Strands: Business, Economics, and Tax Policy 2.0

                                Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                                You find me two jobs that allow you to work four days a week that don't involve flipping burgers and I will eat my hat


                                two self-employed professionals in any of a variety of occupations; or (if you don't consider someone in sales to be a "professional"), a self-employed professional and someone in sales. Basically any "job" in which your income / hour is fairly high and you have discretion over how / when to set your hours.
                                "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                                "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                                "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                                "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                                Comment

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