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  • #31
    Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

    Originally posted by mookie1995 View Post
    did i read that a judge the other day said they couldn't declare bk because it was against the MI constitution?!?! some people actual put in the constitution that you can not lower public pensions. no way, no how. put that IN the state constitution.



    how about a casino?!?!
    That ruling got put on hold today, and the statute regarding the pensions is probably going to get struck down in BK as well.
    FERRIS STATE UNIVERSITY: 2012 FROZEN FOUR


    God, that was fun...

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    • #32
      Originally posted by mookie1995 View Post
      how about a casino?!?!
      They're already got 3! Guess they didn't deliver what they promised....

      I'm amused by the partisan spin on a city that's been dying for 60 years. Detroit's problems seem to mirror Michigans, which has been governed by people of all sorts of political philosophies over that time. Despite my liberal leanings, I have to say its possible some cities just won't make it.

      Having said that, there are some things I would recommend post bankrupcy. 1) Consolidation. Hire out private contractors to tear down underutilized neighborhoods. Whatever they can salvage they get to keep. Resident who reside in one house in a neighborhood of empties have to move. Its unfortunate but the city can't keep up services to this wide of an area. 2) Start with what you know how to do. Plenty of foreign car makers are opening plants and increasing production in the US. Contact them and offer up a deal. You have a skilled workforce, plenty of available land, and can come up with a tax incentive agreement to make it worth their while. 3) Spruce up the place. There's a website called Forgetten Detroit that pictures all of the abandoned buildings. Its shameful to look at. Start with the inner core and slowly move out. If Downtown looks good (which I question, but whatever) what's the neighborhood next door look like? And the one after that? How about the waterfront? Guiliani did something like this in NY, where they'd run all the drug dealers out, fix up the place, keep a police presence there, and then go onto the next neighborhood. Eventually housing values will rise, and with it people will have more incentive to take care of the place.

      Having said all that, I still don't like the city's chances. Places like Boston or NY have several advantages which start with a thriving metro area around them and several business clusters within and near the city. They are also tourist attractions, which Detroit ain't. You can expand when you have a good core. When your core is rotten, good luck.
      Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

      Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

      "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

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      • #33
        Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

        Originally posted by Rover View Post
        Having said that, there are some things I would recommend post bankrupcy. 1) Consolidation. Hire out private contractors to tear down underutilized neighborhoods. Whatever they can salvage they get to keep. Resident who reside in one house in a neighborhood of empties have to move. Its unfortunate but the city can't keep up services to this wide of an area.
        Shrinking the size of the city limits will/should be the next political battle once the bankruptcy filing goes through.

        Originally posted by Rover View Post
        2) Start with what you know how to do. Plenty of foreign car makers are opening plants and increasing production in the US. Contact them and offer up a deal. You have a skilled workforce, plenty of available land, and can come up with a tax incentive agreement to make it worth their while.
        And assuming they come for a mere tax break (which I am skeptical of), where do they go once the tax incentives expire? Back to Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Mexico, etc. where they don't have to deal with the UAW and labor is a fraction of the cost.

        Originally posted by Rover View Post
        3) Spruce up the place. There's a website called Forgetten Detroit that pictures all of the abandoned buildings. Its shameful to look at. Start with the inner core and slowly move out. If Downtown looks good (which I question, but whatever) what's the neighborhood next door look like? And the one after that? How about the waterfront? Guiliani did something like this in NY, where they'd run all the drug dealers out, fix up the place, keep a police presence there, and then go onto the next neighborhood. Eventually housing values will rise, and with it people will have more incentive to take care of the place.
        Forgotten Detroit is interesting to look at, but many of that guy's pictures are now several years old. Several of those buildings have been torn down, rehabbed, or are in the process of being rehabbed. On the other hand, you've still got eyesores like the Michigan Central Station, Packard Plant, etc. And yes, increasing police presence across the city will be important. If it takes the cops two hours to respond to a robbery, no one will move in.

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        • #34
          Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

          Originally posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
          Shrinking the size of the city limits will/should be the next political battle once the bankruptcy filing goes through.



          And assuming they come for a mere tax break (which I am skeptical of), where do they go once the tax incentives expire? Back to Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Mexico, etc. where they don't have to deal with the UAW and labor is a fraction of the cost.



          Forgotten Detroit is interesting to look at, but many of that guy's pictures are now several years old. Several of those buildings have been torn down, rehabbed, or are in the process of being rehabbed. On the other hand, you've still got eyesores like the Michigan Central Station, Packard Plant, etc. And yes, increasing police presence across the city will be important. If it takes the cops two hours to respond to a robbery, no one will move in.
          The trick with #2 is, as part of the rehab, to deal with UAW before the industry shows back up. You're absolutely right, though, that the tax incentives only provide something temporary. The city (and state, for that matter) needs to be open to adjusting its long term policy, especially if it can see that what they bring in is profitable. What also needs to be adjusted are the social programs. Certain people on here will read this as getting rid of them entirely, but that's not what I was thinking. We need to make sure that they are effective, and they do not have high dependence caveats upon certain population sizes. Most of all, DO NOT have one person pay for another. That will just cause the same problems that we had before. Call it whatever you want, but that eliminates the dependence upon population size.

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          • #35
            Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

            Regarding the labor issue, really how much more expensive is Detroit now vs the South? At some point don't they start to converge? Yes, opening up a plant in NYC is going to be costly, but I find it curious that Michigan residents are in a position to demand sky high wages. If the UAW is the problem, then again I'd certainly negotiate with them but if they don't want to play ball you'd have to go around them.

            The reason why companies won't up and leave after the tax breaks expire is the tremendous capital it takes to build a factory and get it up and running. Its not like setting up a call center. Something like a factory is generally a long term commitment, and again they really need to sell the notion of a skilled labor force with experience in that particular industry.
            Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

            Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

            "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

              Originally posted by Rover View Post
              Regarding the labor issue, really how much more expensive is Detroit now vs the South? At some point don't they start to converge? Yes, opening up a plant in NYC is going to be costly, but I find it curious that Michigan residents are in a position to demand sky high wages. If the UAW is the problem, then again I'd certainly negotiate with them but if they don't want to play ball you'd have to go around them.

              The reason why companies won't up and leave after the tax breaks expire is the tremendous capital it takes to build a factory and get it up and running. Its not like setting up a call center. Something like a factory is generally a long term commitment, and again they really need to sell the notion of a skilled labor force with experience in that particular industry.
              It may not be specifically the UAW, but unions are the ones that negotiated the bloated pensions that brought Dee-troy-it to this point in the first place. Granted, the fault is equally on the politicians that caved to these demands.

              As to your second paragraph, that may be true in the short term, but not in the long term. Depending upon the scale, these companies usually have multiple plants across the country (or even the world), and in the long-term will look to expand to the best possible places. Let's consider the overseas jobs that your ilk consistently berates knuckledraggers about. It'd be the same thing as moving from MI to SC, only on a different scale. Do they up and leave the second a tax hike rails its way through legislation? No. However, they keep abreast of the situation and adjust accordingly. That way, when something like that is about to take effect, they're ready for it. Plus, those property tax breaks usually have 20-30 year terms on them, or else they wouldn't relocate in the first place because of the same reasons you just described for why they won't leave immediately.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by FlagDUDE08 View Post
                It may not be specifically the UAW, but unions are the ones that negotiated the bloated pensions that brought Dee-troy-it to this point in the first place. Granted, the fault is equally on the politicians that caved to these demands.

                As to your second paragraph, that may be true in the short term, but not in the long term. Depending upon the scale, these companies usually have multiple plants across the country (or even the world), and in the long-term will look to expand to the best possible places. Let's consider the overseas jobs that your ilk consistently berates knuckledraggers about. It'd be the same thing as moving from MI to SC, only on a different scale. Do they up and leave the second a tax hike rails its way through legislation? No. However, they keep abreast of the situation and adjust accordingly. That way, when something like that is about to take effect, they're ready for it. Plus, those property tax breaks usually have 20-30 year terms on them, or else they wouldn't relocate in the first place because of the same reasons you just described for why they won't leave immediately.
                I don't think they're trying to get people to relocate. I think the goal is getting them to expand in Detroit. Where they choose to build a new factory is a somewhat different game than trying to get a company to relocate operations.

                Beyond that they need to compete with a better workforce. Throwing down a plant in East Podunk, Mississippi and you may have some trouble getting enough quality people. Presumably people in Michigan have a decent education and there's a lot of people with experience building cars. This is very similar to the outsourcing vs domestic argument going on. As the cost of labor in China gets closer to the cost in the US, the deciding factor should be that Chinese products tend to be crap, which tends to happen when you use slave labor to manufacture goods. Eliminate unfair practices (currency manipulation, dumping, etc) and have a fair competition. Detroit needs to reduce the costs vs other car manufacturing places and then go toe to toe on quality of the workforce. If they can't do that then they get what they deserve.
                Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

                  Originally posted by Rover View Post
                  I don't think they're trying to get people to relocate. I think the goal is getting them to expand in Detroit. Where they choose to build a new factory is a somewhat different game than trying to get a company to relocate operations.

                  Beyond that they need to compete with a better workforce. Throwing down a plant in East Podunk, Mississippi and you may have some trouble getting enough quality people. Presumably people in Michigan have a decent education and there's a lot of people with experience building cars. This is very similar to the outsourcing vs domestic argument going on. As the cost of labor in China gets closer to the cost in the US, the deciding factor should be that Chinese products tend to be crap, which tends to happen when you use slave labor to manufacture goods. Eliminate unfair practices (currency manipulation, dumping, etc) and have a fair competition. Detroit needs to reduce the costs vs other car manufacturing places and then go toe to toe on quality of the workforce. If they can't do that then they get what they deserve.
                  Don't fall into the trap that the workforce stays in one place. People have the ability to move as well. That's what my brother did for a manufacturing job from Buffalo to SC, and that's evidently what many of those in Michigan did. It has to be made to be a place where people want to go. Plus, it doesn't necessarily have to be immediately desirable from a standpoint of aura or weather. Look at places like North Dakota with the oil boom, or Watertown NY with Ft. Drum. Dee-troy-it already has something going for them, and that's infrastructure. As you suggested, downsize the city and effectively start over. We know the mistakes that were made, so let's do what we can to not make them again.

                  As much as I can understand your naïve ploy to eliminate unfair practices, you're always going to have that issue, and there's not much that can be done without adjusting your status to make it feasible.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

                    Originally posted by Rover View Post
                    Regarding the labor issue, really how much more expensive is Detroit now vs the South? At some point don't they start to converge? Yes, opening up a plant in NYC is going to be costly, but I find it curious that Michigan residents are in a position to demand sky high wages. If the UAW is the problem, then again I'd certainly negotiate with them but if they don't want to play ball you'd have to go around them.
                    Michigan is right-to-work. Without getting rid of that (might be plausible with the current Republican control of the state government), I'm not sure how you'd do an end-zone run around the UAW.

                    Originally posted by Rover View Post
                    The reason why companies won't up and leave after the tax breaks expire is the tremendous capital it takes to build a factory and get it up and running. Its not like setting up a call center. Something like a factory is generally a long term commitment, and again they really need to sell the notion of a skilled labor force with experience in that particular industry.
                    Right, which is why they would do the long-term math before building the plant, factoring in the sunset date on the tax cut/exemption, and the returns for some years thereafter, compared to moving or opening up another plant in the South. To not perform such an analysis would be stupid.

                    The number of locals who've even seen the inside of a plant (let alone worked in one) dwindles and gets older every year, so you can't necessarily count on industry labor experience as a selling point.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

                      Originally posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
                      Michigan is right-to-work. Without getting rid of that (might be plausible with the current Republican control of the state government), I'm not sure how you'd do an end-zone run around the UAW.
                      Don't you mean "not right-to-work"? You need to implement right-to-work to avoid unions.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

                        Originally posted by goldy_331 View Post
                        Don't you mean "not right-to-work"? You need to implement right-to-work to avoid unions.
                        Derp - yes.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
                          Michigan is right-to-work. Without getting rid of that (might be plausible with the current Republican control of the state government), I'm not sure how you'd do an end-zone run around the UAW.



                          Right, which is why they would do the long-term math before building the plant, factoring in the sunset date on the tax cut/exemption, and the returns for some years thereafter, compared to moving or opening up another plant in the South. To not perform such an analysis would be stupid.

                          The number of locals who've even seen the inside of a plant (let alone worked in one) dwindles and gets older every year, so you can't necessarily count on industry labor experience as a selling point.
                          I would see what the UAW had to offer and if they played hardball I'd look into changing the law. Not too much more complicated than that. I'm guessing they'd be thrilled to have more workers.

                          Regarding their selling point, the fact that the workforce may be aging means the city/state need to get off their @ ss then and get it done.

                          Regarding forecasting 30 years out, I've never known a company that went further than 5 years out, and those out years were always a stretch. 30 years from now factories might be building flying cars, or the transporter from Star Trek might be invented. While I don't work in the car industry, I highly doubt they're looking that long term at every facility. At some point it stops becoming worth it to analyze every possible outcome 100 years into the future.
                          Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                          Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                          "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

                            Originally posted by Rover View Post
                            Regarding forecasting 30 years out, I've never known a company that went further than 5 years out, and those out years were always a stretch.
                            Coca-Cola's business plan supposedly goes out 500 years. No idea what's in it.
                            Michigan Tech Huskies Pep Band: There's No Use Trying To Talk. No Human Sound Can Stand Up To This. Loud Enough To Knock You Down.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

                              Originally posted by Rover View Post
                              Regarding forecasting 30 years out, I've never known a company that went further than 5 years out, and those out years were always a stretch. 30 years from now factories might be building flying cars, or the transporter from Star Trek might be invented.
                              They're working on it. "Simple" matter has been transported 18 inches. http://gizmodo.com/205448/beam-me-up...tter-18-inches
                              "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                              "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                              "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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                              • #45
                                Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

                                Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                                They're working on it. "Simple" matter has been transported 18 inches. http://gizmodo.com/205448/beam-me-up...tter-18-inches
                                Wonkavision!

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