Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

[unofan]

Its called the free market, if the consumer can choose to do business with who they want for whatever reason they choose, shouldn't the business also be able to decline to whichever consumer they want?

The South called. They want Jim Crow back.

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

The South called. They want Jim Crow back.

Jim Crow was about LAWS preventing businesses from making a choice for themselves. That is completely different. You don't understand the difference? Government has a monopoly on force and Jim Crow Laws forced businesses to practice segregation. Businesses making a choices that help or hurt their business are part of business. Look at the outrage for Abercrombie & Fitch over the comments from the CEO? No one makes him do that and it has an effect on the bottom line or public perception of the company. You of all people should understand the difference between government forcing someone to do something versus businesses and consumers making choices for themselves.

[Rover]

You miscalculate greatly. People who hold these views held them long before anybody ever talked about the possibility of gay marriage. So, how would a marketing campaign target something that didn't exist?

I don't think gay marriage is, in and of itself driving this country to decay. It's merely one of many indicators (some of which fall on both sides of the aisle, such as corporate greed and malfeasance being tolerated too much on the Republican side) of the overall slide. How we got here is much more complex than any specific issue such as gay marriage.

I heard someone make an interesting point recently that there is plenty of evidence the United States is not a Christian country anymore (assuming for argument's sake that it was at one time), so why expect a non-Christian nation to reflect Christian values? They are just doing what would be expected of those who don't hold Christian views, and people shouldn't expect anything else.

Bob the marketing campaign is based upon the notion that the way of life you think of as "the norm" is being changed by people without your same (and presumably higher) values. Gay marriage is just one of many isses that fit into that critique. For others it may be Obama's supposed Kenyan birth. Or immigration reform. Think of huskyfan's obsession with Sharia Law in the US. Any one of these issues can be spun into the inevitable doom that is always just around the corner. The issue may change, or better said, can be honed depending on who you're trying to reach, but the message is always the same.

[Bob Gray]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Bob the marketing campaign is based upon the notion that the way of life you think of as "the norm" is being changed by people without your same (and presumably higher) values. Gay marriage is just one of many isses that fit into that critique. For others it may be Obama's supposed Kenyan birth. Or immigration reform. Think of huskyfan's obsession with Sharia Law in the US. Any one of these issues can be spun into the inevitable doom that is always just around the corner. The issue may change, or better said, can be honed depending on who you're trying to reach, but the message is always the same.

You mean the norm of all of human history until the last handful of years?

[alfablue]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

So then what's the problem with someone going to a shop in the next town to get what they want? Let's say the couple is in Newcomb NY, and the closest civil place is 40 miles away.

This is a town that has no officals and does not offer marriage licences? If Newcomb NY has a government, and does give out licences, then it stands to reason that they are sanctioning marriage. so if they are, it's their legal responsibilty to marry any two people who are legaly able to. That's part of what you sign up for when taking a public office, part of the legal responsibilty of the position.

[unofan]

You mean the norm of all of human history until the last handful of years?

The norm of all of human history until relatively recently was also that women were property (first of their fathers, then their husbands). Does that mean we should stop treating women as equals?

[Priceless]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

You mean the norm of all of human history until the last handful of years?

You really want to go down this road?

[Rover]

You mean the norm of all of human history until the last handful of years?

Bob, the norm of all of human history was no interracial marriages. Should that still be in place?

[Bob Gray]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Bob, the norm of all of human history was no interracial marriages. Should that still be in place?

Nice switch of subjects.

[Priceless]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Nice switch of subjects.

You're the one who wants to use "the norm of all of human history" as a standard. I tried to tell you not to go down this road...

[Rover]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Just to reiterate I really do sympathize with people for whom this issue is moving too fast for them. What I will fight against however is the notion that this is part of some sort of plot to force people/religions/etc to endorse gay marriage, or that it will lead to the eventual downfall of society. Those are the statements of hucksters looking to cash in on people's fears, not of college educated hockey fans!

[5mn_Major]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

I heard someone make an interesting point recently that there is plenty of evidence the United States is not a Christian country anymore (assuming for argument's sake that it was at one time), so why expect a non-Christian nation to reflect Christian values? They are just doing what would be expected of those who don't hold Christian views, and people shouldn't expect anything else.

The US is Christian influenced and that holds probably more than it ever has. Jesus was about compassion, respect towards others, equal treatment, giving to the poor. He was not about stopping homosexuality. Just google 'Jesus and gays' and you'll get what you need there. Frankly the ruling is probably more toward what the son of God taught than not.

The orientation that you're referring to is evangelical or old testament thinking. Christianity became what it is today because of the above teaching of compassion. IMO the conservative evangelicals have been trying to railroad the religion forever. Frankly if you think about govt services and Christian teaching...we're probably more of a compassionate Christian nation than most 'conservatives' would like.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Just to reiterate I really do sympathize with people for whom this issue is moving too fast for them. What I will fight against however is the notion that this is part of some sort of plot to force people/religions/etc to endorse gay marriage, or that it will lead to the eventual downfall of society. Those are the statements of hucksters looking to cash in on people's fears, not of college educated hockey fans!

There is a fine line here. If you want to report that this happened, that's the decision, nothing else can be done about that particular thing (aside from possibly a Constitutional amendment), clear up anything that may still be of question, and move on. To be inundated with the fact to the point where it's basically being shoved in our faces, whether it's from a vindictive standpoint, sulking standpoint, or something else, is where the problem arises. Has it gotten to that point? With some of the obviously partisan banter from both sides, perhaps. This is the reason for the uncomfortable situation I had previously described, and also why I support certain "don't ask, don't tell" policies, and I'm talking about ones that actually make sense. If you want to mention your same-sex partner in conversation similar to how anyone might mention their bf/gf, I don't see an issue with that. Want to put on some pink threads? Go for it. If you want to bring out the media-over-exaggerated poofter things that are obvious distractions to draw attention, constantly shout to the world your orientation, or even make a deal out of gather information on this orientation (obvious exception would be if it were absolutely necessary to the completion of a task, such as if you were looking to hook up with someone), that's where the issue comes into play. Freedom's a two-way street, and there really isn't much of any reason for vindication.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

The US is Christian influenced and that holds probably more than it ever has. Jesus was about compassion, respect towards others, equal treatment, giving to the poor. He was not about stopping homosexuality. Just google 'Jesus and gays' and you'll get what you need there. Frankly the ruling is probably more toward what the son of God taught than not.

The orientation that you're referring to is evangelical or old testament thinking. Christianity became what it is today because of the above teaching of compassion. IMO the conservative evangelicals have been trying to railroad the religion forever. Frankly if you think about govt services and Christian teaching...we're probably more of a compassionate Christian nation than most 'conservatives' would like.

As I always like to say, the Romans took Christianity and screwed it up. A lot of the really asinine rules and extra-curricular teachings come from pre-Christian Roman ways of life. Is it any wonder why there have been so many schisms in history? First the Great Schism (creation of the Orthodox church), the Great Western Schism (creation of the Protestant sects), and although you'd think there would be a Great American Schism, perhaps what it would do is to create a spiritual way of thinking.

[Bob Gray]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

You're the one who wants to use "the norm of all of human history" as a standard. I tried to tell you not to go down this road...

Rover introduced the subject of what was the norm. Guess you missed that.