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Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

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  • #46
    Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

    Originally posted by DisplacedCornellian View Post
    Any particular reason it has to be either/or and not AND? I think you're creating a false dichotomy.
    it must have been pretty dim in my head since another "aha" light bulb went off and provided the final clarity I needed.

    For any particular couple, it is "either/or" and for society both forms can co-exist for awhile. I'll have to spell out details later.

    Super-concise version:

    For some people, marriage is a ceremony of initiation. The focus is not on the couple itself, it is on the couple's role and responsibilities as embedded in a wider network of relationship.

    For other people, marriage is a ceremony of coupling. The focus is on the couple as an entity, an end, in and of itself.
    "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

    "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

    "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

    "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

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    • #47
      Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

      When did the rule of needing a marriage license to be married in a church come up? marriage in the bible was clearly not dependent on a license...discussions like this should differentiate between the religious and civil marriages...and speaking of which, why do you need a license to marry but not a license to have children? That would be a better license to require. Just sayin
      I believe in life, and I believe in love, but the world in which I live in keeps trying to prove me wrong.

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      • #48
        Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

        Originally posted by pirate View Post
        When did the rule of needing a marriage license to be married in a church come up? marriage in the bible was clearly not dependent on a license...discussions like this should differentiate between the religious and civil marriages...and speaking of which, why do you need a license to marry but not a license to have children? That would be a better license to require. Just sayin
        Just what we need... lawful babies only by artificial insemination or test tube... The only way you can do the last part is by outlawing sex, and I am NOT using some brain wave helmet thing to arouse me.



        As for the whole license for the church, I would suspect it has something to do with the differences between a Church-recognized marriage and a legally-recognized civil union. The government could care less whether the Church thinks you're married or not, just like how you probably get the ex-comm if you don't go through the hours-long Church ceremony and instead go the civil union via justice route.

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        • #49
          Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

          Originally posted by pirate View Post
          When did the rule of needing a marriage license to be married in a church come up?
          you don't need a marriage license to get married in a church, you merely need the marriage license so that you are recognized as being legally married in the eyes of the law. all heterosexual marriages are civil unions; some of them also are sacramental marriages too.

          Interestingly, many states also recognize what is called "common law" marriage: even if you never had a formal civil union (marriage in front of a judge or minister), if you live together long enough and hold yourself out as a couple long enough you eventually can receive spousal benefits if you separate.


          Common Law Marriage

          Common law and statutory marriage have the following characteristics in common:
          1.Both parties must freely consent to the marriage
          2.Both parties must be of legal age to contract a marriage or have parental consent to marry
          3.Neither party may be under a disability that prevents him or her from entering into a valid marriage - e.g. they must both be of sound mind, neither of them can be currently married, and some jurisdictions do not permit prisoners to marry.

          Otherwise, common law marriage differs from statutory marriage as follows:
          1.There is no marriage license issued by a government and no marriage certificate filed with a government
          2.There is no formal ceremony to solemnize the marriage before witnesses
          3.The parties must hold themselves out to the world as husband and wife (this is not a requirement of statutory marriage)
          4.Most jurisdictions require the parties to be cohabiting at the time the common law marriage is formed. Some require cohabitation to last a certain length of time (e.g. three years) for the marriage to be valid. But cohabitation alone does not create a marriage. The parties must intend their relationship to be, and to be regarded as, a legally valid marriage.


          Originally posted by pirate View Post
          why do you need a license to marry but not a license to have children? That would be a better license to require. Just sayin
          totally agree in concept; thorny to implement in practice.
          Last edited by FreshFish; 04-05-2013, 01:51 PM.
          "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

          "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

          "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

          "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

            Res ipsa loquitur:

            http://wedefendmarriage.blogspot.com/
            "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

            "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

            "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

            "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

              Originally posted by pirate View Post
              When did the rule of needing a marriage license to be married in a church come up? marriage in the bible was clearly not dependent on a license...discussions like this should differentiate between the religious and civil marriages...and speaking of which, why do you need a license to marry but not a license to have children? That would be a better license to require. Just sayin
              It doesn't. The State has said that religious ministers may sign the marriage license. Traditionally, when that happens, it is within the context of a religious ceremony. What the State giveth, the State may take away.
              CCT '77 & '78
              4 kids
              5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
              1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

              ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
              - Benjamin Franklin

              Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

              I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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              • #52
                Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

                Originally posted by joecct View Post
                It doesn't. The State has said that religious ministers may sign the marriage license. Traditionally, when that happens, it is within the context of a religious ceremony. What the State giveth, the State may take away.
                Umm what's a minister?. I've met a few who have basically zero qualifications other than they started a church in their basement..
                MTU: Three time NCAA champions.

                It never get's easier, you just go faster. -Greg Lemond

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                • #53
                  Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

                  Originally posted by manurespreader View Post
                  Umm what's a minister?. I've met a few who have basically zero qualifications other than they started a church in their basement..
                  some "church" licensed them to practice. Could be the First Church of the Gooey Death and Discount House of Worship or the local First (Second, Third) Baptist Church.
                  CCT '77 & '78
                  4 kids
                  5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                  1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                  ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                  - Benjamin Franklin

                  Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                  I want to live forever. So far, so good.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

                    Originally posted by unofan View Post
                    The old testament is part of the bible, is it not? Tim quoted genesis. It's all God's word, right?
                    That is correct.

                    Concubines/poligimy in the Bible...these are a result of sin. Because the Bible mentions a situation does not mean God condones it. Abraham was a pillar of faith, but he is also born a sinner, and sinned, just as every human after Adam and Eve. The Bible talks about marriage in singular's and with the opposite sex. Anything outside of that is a sin.

                    Translations....WELS pastors are trained to read Greek and Hebrew, so if needed they can bring greater clarity to a word or phrase by telling us in much more detail about that word or phrase that may get a little muddled in translation.

                    Ministers....We also have our own Pastor and Teacher training schools. This greatly assists us in keeping the truthes of the Bible pure. Right now in our society there are tons of these pop up churches, and the vast majority lack the depth and scope of knowledge required to keep their teaching in line with the Bible. It's not impossible for a basement pastor to teach the Bible in it's total truth and purity, it's just highly, highly unlikely. A typical WELS pastor has 8 years of post highschool learning, and more than like 4 years of HS and 8 years of gradeschool in a WELS school prior to college.
                    Last edited by Timothy A; 04-06-2013, 09:00 AM.
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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Timothy A View Post
                      That is correct.

                      Concubines/poligimy in the Bible...these are a result of sin. Because the Bible mentions a situation does not mean God condones it. Abraham was a pillar of faith, but he is also born a sinner, and sinned, just as every human after Adam and Eve. The Bible talks about marriage in singular's and with the opposite sex. Anything outside of that is a sin.
                      That seems like a very convenient inference or interpretation of scripture by man, not the word of god himself. Especially since the bible tells you what to do if you do take a second (or third, or 700th) wife. "If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights." (Exodus 21:10). Why would it bother telling you that instead of saying not to do it at all, if it is, in fact, a sin? I don't see God doing the same thing with, say, the Golden Rule. "Love thy neighbor, but if you really can't, at least act like you do to mitigate the sin somewhat."

                      "Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things." (2 Samuel 12:7-8). Sure sounds like God giving David many wives to me. Why would God do that if it was a sin?
                      Last edited by unofan; 04-06-2013, 12:06 PM.

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                      • #56
                        Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

                        Originally posted by Timothy A View Post
                        Translations....WELS pastors are trained to read Greek and Hebrew, so if needed they can bring greater clarity to a word or phrase by telling us in much more detail about that word or phrase that may get a little muddled in translation.
                        Shouldn't it all be read in the original Greek if eternal salvation is dependent on the correct interpretation?
                        In the immortal words of Jean Paul Sartre, 'Au revoir, gopher'.

                        Originally posted by burd
                        I look at some people and I just know they do it doggy style. No way they're getting close to my kids.

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                        • #57
                          Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

                          Originally posted by unofan View Post
                          That seems like a very convenient inference or interpretation of scripture by man, not the word of god himself. Especially since the bible tells you what to do if you do take a second (or third, or 700th) wife. "If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights." (Exodus 21:10). Why would it bother telling you that instead of saying not to do it at all, if it is, in fact, a sin? I don't see God doing the same thing with, say, the Golden Rule. "Love thy neighbor, but if you really can't, at least act like you do to mitigate the sin somewhat."

                          "Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things." (2 Samuel 12:7-8). Sure sounds like God giving David many wives to me. Why would God do that if it was a sin?
                          Time and the place. Time and the place. It worked back then. Sometime around 0 AD, it sure looks like it was 1 to 1 in Jewish religion/culture. Nowadays civil law (as of 4 PM ET on 4/6/13) prohibits polyamory in most countries. Will that change? Maybe.

                          But adultery is still adultery, so don't lay with somebody not your spouse.
                          CCT '77 & '78
                          4 kids
                          5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                          1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                          ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                          - Benjamin Franklin

                          Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                          I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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                          • #58
                            Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

                            Originally posted by joecct View Post
                            Time and the place. Time and the place. It worked back then. Sometime around 0 AD, it sure looks like it was 1 to 1 in Jewish religion/culture. Nowadays civil law (as of 4 PM ET on 4/6/13) prohibits polyamory in most countries. Will that change? Maybe.

                            But adultery is still adultery, so don't lay with somebody not your spouse.
                            *****http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-D9LZg5Gg-us/UU4xyWXizlI/AAAAAAAAASc/JwXa67R8z2c/s320/ChurchLady_Convenient.jpg******
                            /smugface

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                            • #59
                              Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

                              Jesus says almost nothing about homosexuality and plenty about descrimination.

                              Jesus teaches in Matthew 25 that whatever we do to the least of His brothers, we do to Him.
                              Go Gophers!

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                                Jesus says almost nothing about homosexuality and plenty about descrimination.

                                Jesus teaches in Matthew 25 that whatever we do to the least of His brothers, we do to Him.
                                Could it be that sodomy was a no-no under the Old Testament and He saw no reason to change it?

                                As to the last paragraph, that does not mean you have to give everyone a big wet sloppy kiss. Ignore the homeless is bad. Comforting the sick and afflicted is good. Condoning bad behavior is bad.
                                CCT '77 & '78
                                4 kids
                                5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                                1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                                ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                                - Benjamin Franklin

                                Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                                I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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