Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

[burd]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings! Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type makes me puke! You vacuous toffee-nosed malodorous pervert!!!

Yes, you savage, yes!!!! Marry me now!!

[SJHovey]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

That is a valid point, but then is that not a worry everywhere? Should gays not be allowed to go to summer camp because of that? when I went to camp there was tons of boy/girl fraternization that never stopped them from having both sexes there. If a kid is gay should he be excluded because he might do the same thing?

There is no perfect answer but I would err on the side of not excluding people...I realize not everyone feels that way.

I don't disagree with your points. However, I suspect arguments on the other side might point out that while there is always boy/girl fraternization, the camp can at least segregate them in many respects, and certainly with respect to sleeping quarters. I'm not aware of too many camps for youngsters where the boys and girls slept in the same rooms/buildings (not that I would have minded). A little trickier with same sex issues.

There is also simply the issue of identification. Pretty easy, in most cases, to pick out boys from girls in order to keep fraternization to a minimum. But do you want to be the camp counselor who has to pick out the gays from the straights in order to keep funny business to a minimum? Lots of thorny issues that will ultimately have to be worked out.

[Handyman]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

True...let me change the scenario then a bit. Everyone has heard the jokes (which we all know are not jokes really) about boys when they go to camp (all boys camp) and how that is where they tend to experiment. Most of the time that doesnt involve kids getting expelled from said camp or not allowed to attend. What is the difference between two hetero boys screwing around because they are 13 and stuck in the middle of the woods together and 2 gay boys doing the same? If Timmy is "out" as being gay should that be enough to keep him away while "James" is allowed to stay because he identifies as straight?

As I said there is no perfect answer, and if the camp I went to (it was a co-ed religious camp) had that policy I would argue against it but not force them to change it. My kids though would never attend it since I believe in voting with your pocketbook in matters like these.

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Yes, you savage, yes!!!! Marry me now!!

Brian Rafalski does not approve of this marriage.

[burd]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Brian Rafalski does not approve of this marriage.

Kicked back in the closet by a dam Badger. I shoulda known.

[Bob Gray]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Just a note- I am Lutheran. The synod I belong to is an accepting, liberal (oh no!111!1!1!!) church that is not shrinking, but growing. We are not wasting away in depravity practicing what Jesus taught which is "We are all God's children. ALL of us."

Then your denomination is the exception. The statistics for most denominations are what they are, whether you like them or not. The numbers don't lie. The big mainline denominations that have gone liberal almost without an exception are in decline, often steep. I'm not telling you what to believe or anything, but to me it's clear that when you stray from what (to me again) is clear Biblical teaching, it's not surprising that people go elsewhere. Eventually such groups can become little more than a social club, having long lost the power of the Gospel and the love and truth that is in Christ and a vibrant relationship with him. Google episcopal church decline and you'll get a tone of articles. Here's an example: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/op...aved.html?_r=0
A 23 percent decline in ten years is pretty significant. And when you figure in that the typical Episcopal parishioner is like in their early 60s, the decline can be expected to accelerate.

I won't get into your tone that you are accepting and supposedly others who aren't as liberal as you aren't. That's nonsense of course.

I get along with gay people around me just fine, whether in the workplace, relatives, etc. It's one thing to treat each other with respect and dignity, which everyone deserves. That has nothing to do with whether a person endorses or is pressured to endorse another's choice of behavior.

[LynahFan]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Bob, you've got this exactly backwards. People aren't leaving religion because religion is getting too liberal. People are leaving religion because *they've* gotten more liberal and the church is stubbornly, petulantly, refusing to keep up. It's quite bizarre to me that as society's collective view on many social issues (homosexuality, divorce, premarital sex, marijuana use, etc) continues to trend to the more liberal side, you seem to feel that church's best hope for survival is to take an even stronger conservative stance. Rather than attracting new members (and halting the pace of people leaving), it seems to me that conservative denominations are painting themselves into a corner - and that corner of society is shrinking. Clinging to outdated social norms is interfering with the church's ability to spread its primary messages of love, grace, and forgiveness. Is the smug self righteousness really worth that cost?

[Bob Gray]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Bob, you've got this exactly backwards. People aren't leaving religion because religion is getting too liberal. People are leaving religion because *they've* gotten more liberal and the church is stubbornly, petulantly, refusing to keep up. It's quite bizarre to me that as society's collective view on many social issues (homosexuality, divorce, premarital sex, marijuana use, etc) continues to trend to the more liberal side, you seem to feel that church's best hope for survival is to take an even stronger conservative stance. Rather than attracting new members (and halting the pace of people leaving), it seems to me that conservative denominations are painting themselves into a corner - and that corner of society is shrinking. Clinging to outdated social norms is interfering with the church's ability to spread its primary messages of love, grace, and forgiveness. Is the smug self righteousness really worth that cost?

Throughout church history the church has thrived when it has kept to its beliefs and not bent to societal whims of the moment. Whereas churches have declined and decayed when they conform themselves to what society wants them to say/do at the moment. If churches embrace all the things a society wants them to at a given moment, they offer nothing unique and compelling to interest people. In that case, I suggest everyone stay home and sleep in on Sunday morning, etc.

I don't appreciate the "smug self righteousness" crack. But, not surprising.

[unofan]

I won't get into your tone that you are accepting and supposedly others who aren't as liberal as you aren't. That's nonsense of course

I don't appreciate the "smug self righteousness" crack. But, not surprising.

Yeah, I have no idea where he came to that conclusion.

[FreshFish]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Bob, you've got this exactly backwards. People aren't leaving religion because religion is getting too liberal. People are leaving religion because *they've* gotten more liberal and the church is stubbornly, petulantly, refusing to keep up. It's quite bizarre to me that as society's collective view on many social issues (homosexuality, divorce, premarital sex, marijuana use, etc) continues to trend to the more liberal side, you seem to feel that church's best hope for survival is to take an even stronger conservative stance. Rather than attracting new members (and halting the pace of people leaving), it seems to me that conservative denominations are painting themselves into a corner - and that corner of society is shrinking. Clinging to outdated social norms is interfering with the church's ability to spread its primary messages of love, grace, and forgiveness. Is the smug self righteousness really worth that cost?

"Condemn the sin; embrace the sinner."

People are not "leaving" religion; they are merely changing how they practice it.

There is abundant evidence that today's pickup culture is really unhealthy for young women. There are millenias of evidence that drug use in moderation is healthier than drug abuse. Alcoholics Anonymous is a great example of how "submitting to a Higher Power as you understand it" is quite effective for many people.

Society is more bifurcated into "haves" and "have-nots" than it has been in decades and there is a clear correlation (not necessarily causation) between this latent problem and the breakdown of the family and reliance on government welfare programs instead of expanding private charity (where there are reciprocal responsibilities).

I agree with you about the smugness and I don't care about what kind of non-abusive sexual practices consenting adults engage in (including licensed prostitution with routine STD checkups), and evidence suggests that marijuana use is more benign (or alt least less malign) than nicotine or alcohol.

There is a difference between allowing something and encouraging it. We forget that something really worth having has to be earned through discipline and hard work. I don't think this last virtue is at all "outdated."

[Priceless]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Throughout church history the church has thrived when it has kept to its beliefs and not bent to societal whims of the moment. Whereas churches have declined and decayed when they conform themselves to what society wants them to say/do at the moment.

Exactly why the church never should have accepted the theories of Copernicus. The earth revolving around the sun!? How absurd!

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

It's Paul vs. Jesus. And in most "conservative" Churches Paul wins.

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Yeah, I have no idea where he came to that conclusion.

yeah, I have no idea what you're talking about...where exactly is that smug self righteous? That's just saying you're not better than me just because you think my religious beliefs are stupid.

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Throughout church history the church has thrived when it has kept to its beliefs and not bent to societal whims of the moment. Whereas churches have declined and decayed when they conform themselves to what society wants them to say/do at the moment. If churches embrace all the things a society wants them to at a given moment, they offer nothing unique and compelling to interest people. In that case, I suggest everyone stay home and sleep in on Sunday morning, etc.

I don't appreciate the "smug self righteousness" crack. But, not surprising.

This is a sincere question Bob. How do you personally define gender?

[LynahFan]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Throughout church history the church has thrived when it has kept to its beliefs and not bent to societal whims of the moment. Whereas churches have declined and decayed when they conform themselves to what society wants them to say/do at the moment. If churches embrace all the things a society wants them to at a given moment, they offer nothing unique and compelling to interest people. In that case, I suggest everyone stay home and sleep in on Sunday morning, etc.

I don't appreciate the "smug self righteousness" crack. But, not surprising.

The "smug" comment was not meant to be directed at you, actually, but religion in general (and if anything, the conservative southern church I grew up in, in particular). So many churches tend to pride themselves on maintaining bright, hard lines (and we know what pride goeth before) when Jesus's message was exactly the opposite: break through those lines, get rid of the distinctions, love ALL of your neighbors, ALL have sinned, ALL can be forgiven. No categories, no lines. That's clearly NOT the message that people get from the rest of society, and would actually be a way for the church to distinguish itself.

I have no idea what data you're using to come to the conclusion that the church has thrived when it has kept to its beliefs. Care to elaborate?