Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

[joecct]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

I thought suicide was a sin. What an odd thing to do. If that was a gesture to 'wake people up' all it did for me reinforce my thoughts that we need to lobby harder to treat mental illness.

That was / is the irony. Though I believe some religions have softened their position on the severity...but yeah, I think mental issues are not unlikely in this case. Therefore it may be fortunate, or very fortunate he didn't load his suit pockets with explosives and head for the nearest same sex marriage ceremony...or something.

Catholics used to classify suicide as a mortal sin (A serious, grave or mortal sin is the knowing and willful violation of God's law in a serious matter).

But as understanding of mental disorders came about in the later 20th century, it was realized that since life is God's greatest gift, then how can a "normal" person knowingly and willfully toss it away?? Therefore, there must be something wrong and the suicide is not in complete control of their faculties (or something like that).

If Peter's sin can be forgiven, then anyone's sin can be forgiven. All you have to do is ask and be contrite.

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

If Peter's sin can be forgiven, then anyone's sin can be forgiven.

One of the main reasons why I am not religious. In my book, some "sins" are unforgivable.

[leswp1]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Catholics used to classify suicide as a mortal sin (A serious, grave or mortal sin is the knowing and willful violation of God's law in a serious matter).

But as understanding of mental disorders came about in the later 20th century, it was realized that since life is God's greatest gift, then how can a "normal" person knowingly and willfully toss it away?? Therefore, there must be something wrong and the suicide is not in complete control of their faculties (or something like that).

If Peter's sin can be forgiven, then anyone's sin can be forgiven. All you have to do is ask and be contrite.

If you succeed in suicide how can you be contrite? (This was the first thing I thought when I read this.)

Not Catholic but have been surrounded by pre-Vatican II folks who were adamant that it was a sin. I am glad the Church has become more flexible. I took care of some people early in my career who were in a horrible state. They had tried suicide and felt more hopeless than they did before the attempt. Because the belief that suicide was a Mortal Sin they felt they were denied the comfort of their faith and the grace of forgiveness from God.

WWC- In most religions just because God may forgive you does not absolve you for the responsibility of your actions. Kind of like when you are a parent and love your kid but punish him to the point of misery.

[Priceless]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Kind of like when you are a parent and love your kid but punish him to the point of misery.

Just what do you have in store for L'il???

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

WWC- In most religions just because God may forgive you does not absolve you for the responsibility of your actions. Kind of like when you are a parent and love your kid but punish him to the point of misery.

But if God forgives you and you are a believer you get to go to heaven? Or do those who commit unspeakable acts go to the Motel 6 of heaven?

I am not trying to start an all out religious debate and I find you a very reasonable poster but the whole God forgiveness, heaven/hell thing has never made much sense to me. I was raised Catholic so I admit there are more "liberal" belief systems out there and I may be biased towards focusing on strict interpretation. To me, saying homosexuality is a sin (not saying you personally do) which is not a choice (its not) might cause you to go to hell but on the other hand saying God forgives if you are truly sorry for something horrible you did out of "free will" is really troublesome.

[leswp1]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Just what do you have in store for L'il???

But if God forgives you and you are a believer you get to go to heaven? Or do those who commit unspeakable acts go to the Motel 6 of heaven?

I am not trying to start an all out religious debate and I find you a very reasonable poster but the whole God forgiveness, heaven/hell thing has never made much sense to me. I was raised Catholic so I admit there are more "liberal" belief systems out there and I may be biased towards focusing on strict interpretation. To me, saying homosexuality is a sin (not saying you personally do) which is not a choice (its not) might cause you to go to hell but on the other hand saying God forgives if you are truly sorry for something horrible you did out of "free will" is really troublesome.

I grew up Unitarian (which gave a number of my religious relatives fits) but ended up Lutheran by choice in a very liberal congregation. I do not believe homosexuality is a sin. There is a bunch of medical evidence that clearly shows that this isn't a choice and I firmly believe that what God made is not evil. Even though there are people who profess this is a horrible sin we should get our knickers in a twist about there is very little in the Bible about it. There is a helluva lot more about protecting the weak in society. (No one seems to have their knickers in a twist to the same level when we have kids starving in our communities)

I have a sort of nebulous view of God's dealings with forgiveness and horrible acts. Human character is not black and white. A person may do a big heinous thing but then do many wonderful things for years. Does the one heinous thing negate the yrs of good stuff? A person can be truly repentant after doing something awful. That does not absolve them the responsibility for the action, from the punishment society metes out or remove that act from their history. If a person willfully and actively does horrible things and has no remorse (sociopath) then that is different. there is a difference between forgiveness and forgetting. I don't believe stuff is forgotten.

Not particularly articulate tonight but I find this topic fascinating. My Godmother and I discuss this a lot. We usually decide we will never figure it out and that is God's job.

[brookyone]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

But if God forgives you and you are a believer you get to go to heaven? Or do those who commit unspeakable acts go to the Motel 6 of heaven?

I am not trying to start an all out religious debate and I find you a very reasonable poster but the whole God forgiveness, heaven/hell thing has never made much sense to me. I was raised Catholic so I admit there are more "liberal" belief systems out there and I may be biased towards focusing on strict interpretation. To me, saying homosexuality is a sin (not saying you personally do) which is not a choice (its not) might cause you to go to hell but on the other hand saying God forgives if you are truly sorry for something horrible you did out of "free will" is really troublesome.

I was raised a Catholic as well. Parochial school, Franciscan Sisters, religion class every day, sermons from the Parish Pastor in class pretty much weekly. I don't quite get the troublesome aspect. I was taught it's all pretty much in Gods hands including his capacity to forgive any sin. The only unforgivable sin was complete, unrepentant rejection of the Holy Spirit. Or one who blasphemes the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness. Such forgiveness may be troublesome, even to people of faith. I was taught that's what faith is. Believing / accepting things you may not understand or like very much, but believing nonetheless. That is faith...as I was taught.

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

I grew up Unitarian (which gave a number of my religious relatives fits) but ended up Lutheran by choice in a very liberal congregation. I do not believe homosexuality is a sin. There is a bunch of medical evidence that clearly shows that this isn't a choice and I firmly believe that what God made is not evil. Even though there are people who profess this is a horrible sin we should get our knickers in a twist about there is very little in the Bible about it. There is a helluva lot more about protecting the weak in society. (No one seems to have their knickers in a twist to the same level when we have kids starving in our communities)

I have a sort of nebulous view of God's dealings with forgiveness and horrible acts. Human character is not black and white. A person may do a big heinous thing but then do many wonderful things for years. Does the one heinous thing negate the yrs of good stuff? A person can be truly repentant after doing something awful. That does not absolve them the responsibility for the action, from the punishment society metes out or remove that act from their history. If a person willfully and actively does horrible things and has no remorse (sociopath) then that is different. there is a difference between forgiveness and forgetting. I don't believe stuff is forgotten.

Not particularly articulate tonight but I find this topic fascinating. My Godmother and I discuss this a lot. We usually decide we will never figure it out and that is God's job.

I was raised a Catholic as well. Parochial school, Franciscan Sisters, religion class every day, sermons from the Parish Pastor in class pretty much weekly. I don't quite get the troublesome aspect. I was taught it's all pretty much in Gods hands including his capacity to forgive any sin. The only unforgivable sin was complete, unrepentant rejection of the Holy Spirit. Or one who blasphemes the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness. Such forgiveness may be troublesome, even to people of faith. I was taught that's what faith is. Believing / accepting things you may not understand or like very much, but believing nonetheless. That is faith...as I was taught.

Thanks for adding your perspective. Although I may disagree with certain conclusions, it is hard to ignore that both sides of the issue have many people with tremendous empathy for their fellow man (and woman). As this is not a religious debate thread, I will leave it at that.

I often use this quote (attributed to Marcus Aurelius although I have not found it in any primary sources) to describe my position as it tends to find a lot of common ground.

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but...will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

[leswp1]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Thanks for adding your perspective. Although I may disagree with certain conclusions, it is hard to ignore that both sides of the issue have many people with tremendous empathy for their fellow man (and woman). As this is not a religious debate thread, I will leave it at that.

I often use this quote (attributed to Marcus Aurelius although I have not found it in any primary sources) to describe my position as it tends to find a lot of common ground.

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but...will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

That about sums it up. It is always interesting to 'hear' other's views on this kind of thing. Having grown up a Unitarian, my default is to be curious and to consider the merits of what someone says rather than whether it is dogmatically correct. Never formally 'trained' in the religion I practice. Am more of a freelancer who has found a home in a very liberal congregation. Not much dogma (or what ever Lutherans call it). Lots of thinking. Had a patient once who was a rabbinical student. THe basis for her religious education was to debate the different precepts. I could have listened to her forever.

[brookyone]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/05/2...dame-in-paris/

This guy had some very strong convictions regarding what is marriage...apparently.

...and an equally rational response to the rational suicide... NSFW

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...#slide=2484771

[joecct]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

This is interesting...
http://ncronline.org/blogs/parish-di...ntrol-marriage

[Priceless]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

I would just like to say that I encourage these protests by topless women and hope that trend catches on here in the States!

[joecct]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

I would just like to say that I encourage these protests by topless women and hope that trend catches on here in the States!

The "I ain't wearin' no stinkin' burka!" group may just do it.

[leswp1]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

SO the Boy Scouts just said yes to kids but not adults. Kind of weird, mixed message. Are they saying that they train kids to be leaders, help them grow as people but when they hit the end of puberty it wears off and they are stupid? All I can think of is the Star Trek episode that the kids are all normal until puberty when they turn into weird and dangerous Grups.

[Priceless]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

SO the Boy Scouts just said yes to kids but not adults. Kind of weird, mixed message. Are they saying that they train kids to be leaders, help them grow as people but when they hit the end of puberty it wears off and they are stupid? All I can think of is the Star Trek episode that the kids are all normal until puberty when they turn into weird and dangerous Grups.

Join the organization and they'll pray the gay away. If it doesn't work and you're still gay they kick you to the curb.