Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Are people actually arguing that if it wasn't for the 10 commandments, we'd think that killing someone would be ok? Seriously, to think that that law is not based on basic human understanding of good, and is only there because it was written in the bible is ludicrous.

I don't think religions should enter into the decision of what should be a law or not. I'm with SG, it doesn't hurt anyone else if the gays are getting married, or if people are having pre-marrital sex, why should we listen to a religion to decide that those things are right or wrong? We shouldn't. With that said, that doesn't mean we can't have overlaps, like "thou shall not kill", because you know what? That is ****ing common sense.

There are people that believe "honour killings" are OK. Not to mention, a human understanding of good has to have basis somewhere, and claiming the parents doesn't work because you then get a recursive question.

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

There are people that believe "honour killings" are OK. Not to mention, a human understanding of good has to have basis somewhere, and claiming the parents doesn't work because you then get a recursive question.

I think most people would say that they know that killing another person is wrong, and that they would know that without needing religion to tell them. And I'm not including wacked out ragheads that think honor killings are OK, they're a ****ed up kind of people that don't deserve to live on this planet.

[Bob Gray]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

There are people that believe "honour killings" are OK. Not to mention, a human understanding of good has to have basis somewhere, and claiming the parents doesn't work because you then get a recursive question.

Again, people are now ok with human understanding coming from anywhere but religion. Somehow the possibility that religion could inform us in any way is just beyond the pale of possibility to many people. Surely a bizarre state of affairs, but that's where our nation finds itself. But, as history shows, every great nation eventually decays and falls.

[Priceless]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Again, people are now ok with human understanding coming from anywhere but religion. Somehow the possibility that religion could inform us in any way is just beyond the pale of possibility to many people. Surely a bizarre state of affairs, but that's where our nation finds itself. But, as history shows, every great nation eventually decays and falls.

So you'd be fine if we instituted some sharia law? Or maybe some Buddhist principles?

?

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Again, people are now ok with human understanding coming from anywhere but religion. Somehow the possibility that religion could inform us in any way is just beyond the pale of possibility to many people. Surely a bizarre state of affairs, but that's where our nation finds itself. But, as history shows, every great nation eventually decays and falls.

Probably because people mistaken the difference between religion and spirituality. This is one of the lessons taught during the South Park two-parter "Do the Handicapped Go to Hell?"/"Probably" (Synopsis: Cartman turns into the equivalent of a preachy Southern Baptist minister). People are turning away from religious beliefs because they associate it with sitting/standing/kneeling in a building/carpet/whatever at a certain frequency and then taking a number of tomes literally that you have to do or not do certain things in order to go somewhere when you die. For some people, that's a sense of direction, and can easily be respected. What I find spiritual people do is that they take the teachings of religions and shape it into what they believe constitutes a good person, and typically allows for people to have the freedom to express themselves in the way that they do. The definition of "good person" does have to have roots somewhere, and I do believe it evolves over time. Who knows, thousand of years from now humans may become cannibals.

[Bob Gray]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

?

unofan is my ignore list, so I don't know or respond to anything he posts.

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Probably because people mistaken the difference between religion and spirituality. This is one of the lessons taught during the South Park two-parter "Do the Handicapped Go to Hell?"/"Probably" (Synopsis: Cartman turns into the equivalent of a preachy Southern Baptist minister). People are turning away from religious beliefs because they associate it with sitting/standing/kneeling in a building/carpet/whatever at a certain frequency and then taking a number of tomes literally that you have to do or not do certain things in order to go somewhere when you die. For some people, that's a sense of direction, and can easily be respected. What I find spiritual people do is that they take the teachings of religions and shape it into what they believe constitutes a good person, and typically allows for people to have the freedom to express themselves in the way that they do. The definition of "good person" does have to have roots somewhere, and I do believe it evolves over time. Who knows, thousand of years from now humans may become cannibals.

Roots of an individual's belief system can come from anywhere, ranging from 100% relgious, to 100% non-religious. Roots of a secular society's collective belief system need to be from a source that agrees with as many people as possible in that society. I really don't think any sane person has a problem with a law against murder, but how is that comparable at all to gay marriage? Just because the bible, or numerous other religious texts, got the murder thing right, we should follow them for everything?

Hey, I'm not a person that in any way agrees with "the gay culture". I go as far as to try to avoid it. But it doesn't hurt me if they're married. I'd just prefer the government spend its time on something that is actually worth talking about, like huge deficits and lowering taxes, instead of wasting time on something that really doen't matter.

[unofan]

unofan is my ignore list, so I don't know or respond to anything he posts.

and yet now that he saw it, he still didn't answer...I for one am shocked.

[Jon]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

In general, if something in someone's life makes them a better person (ie, religion, philosophy, rooting for any team other than the Rodents, Roboshark), I'm all for it.

If it makes you a miserable jerk, you were going to do that regardless of religion or lack there of.

[Bob Gray]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

In general, if something in someone's life makes them a better person (ie, religion, philosophy, rooting for any team other than the Rodents, Roboshark), I'm all for it.

If it makes you a miserable jerk, you were going to do that regardless of religion or lack there of.

Well said.

[Priceless]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

unofan is my ignore list, so I don't know or respond to anything he posts.

and yet now that he saw it, he still didn't answer...I for one am shocked.

Let me try.

Again, people are now ok with human understanding coming from anywhere but religion. Somehow the possibility that religion could inform us in any way is just beyond the pale of possibility to many people. Surely a bizarre state of affairs, but that's where our nation finds itself. But, as history shows, every great nation eventually decays and falls.

So you'd be fine if we instituted some sharia law?

[Bob Gray]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Let me try.


So you'd be fine if we instituted some sharia law?

You can have that conversation with unofan if you want. I'm not interested. Though I'd say some of the things he's put forward in some ways remind me of sharia law in their lack of tolerance and respect for others.

You see, some of us can see middle ground between religion not in any way informing anything in society and sharia law. Apparently unofan and others can't see anything in between. Doesn't surprise me, given past things I've seen said around here.

[leswp1]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Again, people are now ok with human understanding coming from anywhere but religion. Somehow the possibility that religion could inform us in any way is just beyond the pale of possibility to many people. Surely a bizarre state of affairs, but that's where our nation finds itself. But, as history shows, every great nation eventually decays and falls.

Again I think of Matthew where tells the Sadducees and the Pharisees that they are way too obsessed with the letter of the law and not the Spirit. Nations fall because of laxity but also because they are inflexible. Neither system works well.

IMHO most people are not vehemently opposed to religion or admitting some things are based on religion. Some live with a particular religion as their only lens, others reject anything coming from religion, but IMO the vast majority have probably been exposed to a belief system of some sort that influenced them in some way. Each society has a set of 'rules' developed over the years from a conglomeration of peoples' beliefs and what is accepted as normal in society as a whole. Many of the rules in the Bible were developed by societies that existed way before Judaism and Christianity. Just like the rules changed between the Old Testament and the New Testament, society's acceptance of what had previously been unthinkable has changed over the years. A few striking examples come to mind- people of color and women being able to vote, Prohibition and then not, use of various drugs (cocaine, opium, tobacco, alcohol), women wearing revealing clothing, medication during labor, who should get the children if the family splits up.

Read the hx of Massachusetts. Puritans banned Christmas and kept the Sabbath strictly. Folks were punished for playing games, singing carols, etc. We had witch trials that were completely acceptable at the time they occurred. Rhode Island was a haven for those who couldn't deal with Mass laws. Obviously the Puritans would have fits now! If they tried to enforce their rules people would be howling for their rights.

Unless a religion is actively causing harm or advocating something like blood sacrifice, pedophilia, abuse of some sort they should be able to live by their beliefs. They should not be able to tell me I can't have my beliefs. There is a huge difference between my religion influencing me and someone else deciding their religion should govern me or anyone else for that matter. The founding fathers were Theists, not Christians. They used the social mores of the time to define their idea of what our country should be. They were wise enough to make the laws to allow for adaptation and amendment. They knew a successful gov't needed to be flexible.

[unofan]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

You can have that conversation with unofan if you want. I'm not interested. Though I'd say some of the things he's put forward in some ways remind me of sharia law in their lack of tolerance and respect for others.

You see, some of us can see middle ground between religion not in any way informing anything in society and sharia law. Apparently unofan and others can't see anything in between. Doesn't surprise me, given past things I've seen said around here.

You do realize that sharia law does things like forbid murder, right? There was plenty of low-hanging fruit just ripe for you to pick on your way to the "middle ground," but you just couldn't help yourself.

[leswp1]

Re: Just what IS "marriage" anyway?

Most of the main religions all have the same type of laws. What happens if you don't obey them is a different story.