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The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

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  • Originally posted by FlagDUDE08 View Post
    OK, let's go by the numbers on this one. http://www.irs.gov/PUP/newsroom/REG-148500-12%20FR.pdf is the actual data, http://cnsnews.com/news/article/irs-...e-20000-family is a cliffs notes version.

    According to this site, the penalty for a family of five making $120,000 a year living in a place that is the national average will be a charged a tax of $2400. They will be offered a credit of $2400 by paying for the lowest-level of insurance plan that will cost, per year for the five of them, anywhere between $12,000 and $20,000 ($12,000 is from http://www.factcheck.org/2013/03/oba...0000-a-family/ just in case the whiners would like to put in a rebuttal about numbers; there isn't much of a difference in the point anyway). Knowing this, and how certain high risk individuals that go skiing and break their leg bones will likely not have the same payments or possibly even qualifications as bronze coverage, are families still going to fork over five figures extra for this product, when putting that money in the bank for ten years will save enough enough to cover the cost of that broken leg?
    Flaggy your logic makes little sense. First of all if someone is making 120 large a year and chooses not to insure their own kids that's pretty scummy. Most likely these people ARE ALREADY PAYING 10K to insure their family.

    Next the notion that they should just save the money for a rainy day is stark raving stupid and speaks of someone who hasn't lived away from his parents for long if ever. While you can game the system and hope nobody out of 5 people ever gets an injury that requires a hospital visit (car accident, sports injury, etc) you also are counting on not getting your kids regular check ups in your savings calculation, which is astounding. The idea that there would be two nickles left over after 10 years, let alone tens of thousands of dollars, is laughable. I like libertarians as much as the next guy, but sometimes you people need to spend time in the real world with the rest of us.
    Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

    Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

    "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

    Comment


    • Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

      Originally posted by Rover View Post
      Flaggy your logic makes little sense. First of all if someone is making 120 large a year and chooses not to insure their own kids that's pretty scummy. Most likely these people ARE ALREADY PAYING 10K to insure their family.

      Next the notion that they should just save the money for a rainy day is stark raving stupid and speaks of someone who hasn't lived away from his parents for long if ever. While you can game the system and hope nobody out of 5 people ever gets an injury that requires a hospital visit (car accident, sports injury, etc) you also are counting on not getting your kids regular check ups in your savings calculation, which is astounding. The idea that there would be two nickles left over after 10 years, let alone tens of thousands of dollars, is laughable. I like libertarians as much as the next guy, but sometimes you people need to spend time in the real world with the rest of us.
      Flaggy has no clue what insurance is. Don't bother.
      **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

      Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
      Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

      Comment


      • Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

        Originally posted by Rover View Post
        Flaggy your logic makes little sense. First of all if someone is making 120 large a year and chooses not to insure their own kids that's pretty scummy. Most likely these people ARE ALREADY PAYING 10K to insure their family.

        Next the notion that they should just save the money for a rainy day is stark raving stupid and speaks of someone who hasn't lived away from his parents for long if ever. While you can game the system and hope nobody out of 5 people ever gets an injury that requires a hospital visit (car accident, sports injury, etc) you also are counting on not getting your kids regular check ups in your savings calculation, which is astounding. The idea that there would be two nickles left over after 10 years, let alone tens of thousands of dollars, is laughable. I like libertarians as much as the next guy, but sometimes you people need to spend time in the real world with the rest of us.
        I forget where the information is, as it's been a couple years since I last saw it, but a large portion of the uninsured in this country are uninsured by choice (I forget the exact %, but it was far from insubstantial). These people who were uninsured by choice were usually sole proprietors, and many of them had incomes in excess of $80,000. You can find the information easily enough on the web should you choose. The site I was read summarized IRS data, IIRC.
        "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

        "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

        "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

        Comment


        • Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

          Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
          I forget where the information is, as it's been a couple years since I last saw it, but a large portion of the uninsured in this country are uninsured by choice (I forget the exact %, but it was far from insubstantial). These people who were uninsured by choice were usually sole proprietors, and many of them had incomes in excess of $80,000. You can find the information easily enough on the web should you choose. The site I was read summarized IRS data, IIRC.
          No businessperson in their right mind would be completely uninsured. They'd at least have a catastrophic policy of some sort.
          **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

          Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
          Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
            I forget where the information is, as it's been a couple years since I last saw it, but a large portion of the uninsured in this country are uninsured by choice (I forget the exact %, but it was far from insubstantial). These people who were uninsured by choice were usually sole proprietors, and many of them had incomes in excess of $80,000. You can find the information easily enough on the web should you choose. The site I was read summarized IRS data, IIRC.
            Flag cited a specific example (120K family of 5) so I gave him an answer to that scenario. Lets say you are a sole proprietor. If you make that kind of money and can't be bothered to insure your kids that's scraping the bottom of the barrel IMHO.
            Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

            Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

            "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
              Flaggy has no clue what insurance is. Don't bother.
              I still wish no ill on my fellow man. In flaggy's case, though, a near miss wouldn't be a bad thing. Someone needs a wakeup call.

              Comment


              • Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

                Interesting and on point article:

                http://theweek.com/article/index/245...rance-premiums
                Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

                Comment


                • Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

                  Originally posted by Rover View Post
                  which omits an extremely important element, which is the quality of care. The policies available on the California exchanges have an extremely limited provider network when compared to other policies. The Wall St. Journal has done several interesting articles from various points of view this week on the CA exchange. They have a similar conclusion as in the article you cited: people who otherwise would have lower premium policies will be forced to buy higher premium policies, so that people who would have had higher premiums get their premiums lowered.

                  The problem is, health care is not only about premiums, it's also about access to the system. The provider networks in LA are reportedly the same as the provider networks for Medicaid. The places where the best care is available aren't on those networks.

                  So if you really want to have an honest debate, you don't only compare premiums, you also compare what kind of access you get in exchange for those premiums. The CA exchanges, by offering such narrow networks, are reducing quality. For those of us who understand basic math, that's a disguised price "increase" in the sense that you are not getting as much "unit value" in return.

                  My doctor retired at the end of last year specifically because he didn't want to put up with Obama'care'. He wasn't shy about what he disliked about it. and he liked Medicare too.
                  "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                  "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                  "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                  "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                  Comment


                  • Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

                    Sometimes an analogy can help clarify something when direct conversation bogs down.

                    There have been quite a few natural disasters in the news in the past several years. California has earthquakes and mud slides. Montana has wild fires. Oklahoma has tornadoes. Illinois and Missouri have flooding. Florida, North Carolina, New Jersey have been slammed by hurricanes.

                    As a result of all these events, homeowners' insurance premiums have increased considerably. On top of that, FEMA is often called upon to provide assistance after disasters strike, which puts additional strain on the federal budget. The President and Congress couldn't just sit idly by; they agree that a recovery in the housing market is essential to restoring economic growth. On top of that, since FEMA is already backstopping the insurance companies anyway, the Federal government needs to make sure that enough additional money is set aside to deal with disasters ahead of time, rather than respond retroactively only after disaster has struck. As a result, they passed the Homeowners Protection and Affordable Coverage Act, which sets national standards for homeowners' insurance policies and requires the establishment of homeowners' insurance exchanges in every state.

                    There has been quite a bit of controversy over this move. The west coast is never hit by hurricanes (neither are most inland states), and there is a lot of pushback there to the requirement that all policies include mandatory hurricane coverage. Tornadoes are rare in many parts of the country, and there is widespread resistance there to the mandated tornado damage coverage.

                    A spokesperson for the National Association of Insurance Commissioners expressed that body's outrage over this unprecedented intrusion of the federal government into state regulation: "the weather conditions faced by each state are unique and are simply not amenable to a one-size fits all, across-the-board set of standardized policies for every homeowner in the country. Each state has local expertise and decades if not centuries of local climate data upon which to draw in setting rates. Every state has different building codes; there is no way a single centralized bureaucracy can take into account all of the unique local variations in building codes, local geology, and regional climate."

                    President Obama was non-plussed: "We are so intelligent and so well-meaning, we can blithely disregard all this carping and whining. Affordable homeowners' insurance is something that should be available to every homeowner: we need to protect them from greedy insurance companies and it's obvious that the state insurance commissioners aren't up to the job. It's the right thing to do. Just because it's never been done before and it has always been viewed as a state prerogative is no reason to resist our good intentions. History will prove we are right."

                    Obama sycophants of course cheered this move: "we already have a program like this in Massachusetts, and it works great for us. I'm sure the rest of the country will come around too once they see how wonderful it is."

                    Actuaries were unimpressed: "mandating coverage for events that are unlikely to happen can only raise premiums. The way the law is written, premium increases are inevitable." Their concerns of course were dismissed out of hand; no one even listened to them: "you know actuaries, they are always complaining about something. We can safely ignore them since they are so boring and have no constituency: the Society of Actuaries hardly ever donates any money to political campaigns anyway."
                    Last edited by FreshFish; 06-05-2013, 10:59 AM.
                    "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                    "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                    "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                    "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                    Comment


                    • Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

                      With my Obamacare-compliant insurance that my employer is now in its second year of using, I'm sure they could make the payment and billing process more complicated, but I don't know how. The old plan used to be so much simpler.
                      "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                      "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                      "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

                      Comment


                      • So it turns out fishy's upset because he's an actuary and no one listens to him? Call the whambulance and get in line. The government's been ignoring accountents, economists, and scientists for decades. Actuaries are hardly special in that regard.

                        But this affects you directly, so now you're upset. Color me shocked that a Fark Independent (tm) reacted that way.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by unofan View Post
                          So it turns out fishy's upset because he's an actuary and no one listens to him? Call the whambulance and get in line. The government's been ignoring accountents, economists, and scientists for decades. Actuaries are hardly special in that regard.

                          But this affects you directly, so now you're upset. Color me shocked that a Fark Independent (tm) reacted that way.
                          I don't think being an actuary is the reason why people aren't listening to Fishy. Its more unworkable or nonsensical ideas that are wedded to a dying ideology.

                          Clown, did you ever think that maybe some things happen unrelated to Obamacare? Like for example if it rained yesterday or if ants got into your lunch? I doubt Obamacare has much effect on billing or we would have heard some whining from the Actuary Support Society (A_SS) already.
                          Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                          Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                          "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

                          Comment


                          • Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

                            Originally posted by Rover View Post
                            I don't think being an actuary is the reason why people aren't listening to Fishy. Its more unworkable or nonsensical ideas that are wedded to a dying ideology.

                            Clown, did you ever think that maybe some things happen unrelated to Obamacare? Like for example if it rained yesterday or if ants got into your lunch? I doubt Obamacare has much effect on billing or we would have heard some whining from the Actuary Support Society (A_SS) already.
                            The billing changes are, in fact, a direct result of Obamacare. My old plan would have been considered a "Cadilac" plan, and so my employer reduced our coverage to the HRA plan we have now. What used to be a copay and then full coverage up until $X per year, it is now, instead a copay, then I cover the first $2K-$4K per year, but some of that might be covered under some special dispensation fund, then the HRA payments kick in, and then finally I hit the 80/20 coverage point in the plan. The lead human resources lady in my company even released a "we're sorry, but Obamacare forced us into it" video when the company made the change. In my ten years of being here, that's the first time they've ever offered up such a thing, and it's especially surprising given that my company generally leans to the liberal side of most things, and extremely liberal on other things when it comes to getting entangled in social issues.
                            "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                            "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                            "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

                            Comment


                            • Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

                              Originally posted by unofun View Post
                              The government's been ignoring accountents [sic], economists, and scientists for decades. Actuaries are hardly special in that regard.
                              are you so blithely unconcerned when they ignore civil engineers during bridge construction, too?


                              who needs aerospace engineers when it comes to building rockets, right? Just hire a few interns, give them a few articles off the internet, you're all set!
                              "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                              "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                              "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                              "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                                are you so blithely unconcerned when they ignore civil engineers during bridge construction, too?


                                who needs aerospace engineers when it comes to building rockets, right? Just hire a few interns, give them a few articles off the internet, you're all set!
                                Were you so blithely concerned when they ignored scientists when discussing the climate, or economists when discussing the economy, or women when talking about women's health? Or were you noticeably unconcerned at those times?
                                Last edited by unofan; 06-05-2013, 12:18 PM.

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