Convention junkies can obsess details here!

[FreshFish]

Re: Convention junkies can obsess details here!

I suppose that "*******," "libstain," & "dip****" are just cute little nicknames signifying endearment.

There's other big meanies around here besides the two left-leaning ones that you've pointed out.

Just sayin'.

You mean Old Pio? He comes across to me like the crazy uncle who yells at passersby in the streets, I don't think there's any malice behind it, just a bit of over-exciteability. I've never heard him take pleasure in someone else's misfortune, he's just cranky.


It's the "I hurt someone else on purpose and I feel good about it" attitude that I find repulsive. Saying "they deserved it" just makes it worse.

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Convention junkies can obsess details here!

You mean Old Pio? He comes across to me like the crazy uncle who yells at passersby in the streets, I don't think there's any malice behind it, just a bit of over-exciteability. I've never heard him take pleasure in someone else's misfortune, he's just cranky.

Sounds about right.

I was just pointing out that there's plenty of bile in these threads to go around.

[Jimjamesak]

> the viciousness of the "punish the rich" proposals means people have to take extra precautionary steps to protect themselves, and that also is stifling innovation
> unnecessarily high energy costs impede business profits; anemic business profits impede hiring
> we need jobs

I don't understand this opposition to asking someone to pay a fair share of taxes. If you want to know why there is viciousness coming from working class and younger people it's because we've sat by and given trickle down economics a chance and the only innovation out of it was to see jobs go off to other countries. I see it everyday at my job with the huge amounts of products coming in from China and almost nothing going the other way. You really wanna get the economy going? Give corporations that have manufacturing facilities in the US a tax break, not their CEOs.

I always like to use this quote from Fight Club that I think describes those in my age group:
"We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires and movie gods and rockstars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very very *ed off."

[FreshFish]

Re: Convention junkies can obsess details here!

I don't understand this opposition to asking someone to pay a fair share of taxes. If you want to know why there is viciousness coming from working class and younger people it's because we've sat by and given trickle down economics a chance and the only innovation out of it was to see jobs go off to other countries. I see it everyday at my job with the huge amounts of products coming in from China and almost nothing going the other way. You really wanna get the economy going? Give corporations that have manufacturing facilities in the US a tax break, not their CEOs.

I always like to use this quote from Fight Club that I think describes those in my age group:
"We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires and movie gods and rockstars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very very *ed off."

Giving tax reliefs to corporations that manufacture in US makes good sense.

I don't think there is opposition to asking everying to pay a "fair share" of taxes, and for people to direct viciousness at one another out of resentment and envy merely plays into the hands of politicians who have set things up that way. There is a huge, yawning gulf between saying "pay your 'fair' share" and saying "being successful is a bad thing; s/he must have done it at someone else's expense."

I've been to many small businesses and interviewed their owners. Every one of them, without fail, is acutely aware that all of their employees depend upon them for their livelihood. Have you any idea what a responsibility it is on a person to have 20 families depending on him to make good decisions consistently? The problem is not at all about 'fair' share; the problem lies in saying that one person's success must have come at someone else's expense, and that is simply not true. Every small business owner I know seeks out and rewards employee feedback and innovation; every small business owner I know encourages advancement and growth in his/her workforce.

You can, in a pleasant and affable way, say "hey guys we need you to pitch in more." That is not the problem. The problem is when the leader of the federal government declares you to be an enemy of the state.

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Convention junkies can obsess details here!

Giving tax reliefs to corporations that manufacture in US makes good sense.

I don't think there is opposition to asking everying to pay a "fair share" of taxes, and for people to direct viciousness at one another out of resentment and envy merely plays into the hands of politicians who have set things up that way. There is a huge, yawning gulf between saying "pay your 'fair' share" and saying "being successful is a bad thing; s/he must have done it at someone else's expense."

I've been to many small businesses and interviewed their owners. Every one of them, without fail, is acutely aware that all of their employees depend upon them for their livelihood. Have you any idea what a responsibility it is on a person to have 20 families depending on him to make good decisions consistently? The problem is not at all about 'fair' share; the problem lies in saying that one person's success must have come at someone else's expense, and that is simply not true. Every small business owner I know seeks out and rewards employee feedback and innovation; every small business owner I know encourages advancement and growth in his/her workforce.

You can, in a pleasant and affable way, say "hey guys we need you to pitch in more." That is not the problem. The problem is when the leader of the federal government declares you to be an enemy of the state.

First off, I don't think that small business owners are the ones that people are thinking about when they think of rich people not paying enough taxes.

Now, if you believe that small business owners will be disproportionately effected by a raise in their personal income tax (not talking about the business, but their own take home), I'd have to wonder how that would effect their employees in the way you are implying. The tax hike would be on people making more than $250k a year.

If you're making that kind of jack, it seems unlikely that paying a bit more is gonna send you spiraling into personal bankruptcy. To be clear, we're not talking about someone here who owns a lawn cutting business or a boutique with 10 employees. It's VERY unlikely that those people are paying themselves $250k per year.

As to your final paragraph, the protectors of "enemies of the state" have called the leader of the federal government a socialist, a communist, a muslim, an angry man, etc, etc, etc. Do you really expect anyone to feel bad for those poor, poor rich folk?

To be honest, in the face of the constant attacks, I'm surprised he's been able to keep it together as well as he has.

[Kepler]

Re: Convention junkies can obsess details here!

First off, I don't think that small business owners are the ones that people are thinking about when they think of rich people not paying enough taxes.

Correct. The execs of multinationals use small business owners as a human shield in these arguments. ADM kept up their subsidies for twenty years by sponsoring Sunday political shows like the McLaughlin Group and running wall-to-wall ads of family farmers cooling apple pie on their window sills. It's a canard.

[Scarlet]

Re: Convention junkies can obsess details here!

Didn't watch a lick of the convention but did see a clip of Clint Eastwood on the news this morning. Was there no hair or makeup person backstage to tone down that tuft of hair at the back of his head? It made him look like a grumpy old man. I know he is a grumpy old man, but he's a major Hollywood celebrity. Wet that piece of hair down. Or spray it or something.

Also, there's a Invisible Obama twitter account that's pretty comical.

[Kepler]

Re: Convention junkies can obsess details here!

OK, it's not you, but a distant relative (and don't be catty about it)?

Not that I know of.

[LynahFan]

Re: Convention junkies can obsess details here!

First off, I don't think that small business owners are the ones that people are thinking about when they think of rich people not paying enough taxes.

Now, if you believe that small business owners will be disproportionately effected by a raise in their personal income tax (not talking about the business, but their own take home), I'd have to wonder how that would effect their employees in the way you are implying. The tax hike would be on people making more than $250k a year.

If you're making that kind of jack, it seems unlikely that paying a bit more is gonna send you spiraling into personal bankruptcy. To be clear, we're not talking about someone here who owns a lawn cutting business or a boutique with 10 employees. It's VERY unlikely that those people are paying themselves $250k per year.

If it's a sole proprietorship, partnership, or S-corporation, all of the company's profit is considered personal income and is taxed at the personal rates of the owner(s), whether or not they "take the money out" of the business as salary. Therefore, raising personal income tax rates does reduce the amount that the owners can re-invest to grow their companies.

edit: To your point, you are correct that the "very small businesses" that you are using as examples are unlikely to have that much profit, but for long term job growth, we need those companies to grow into small businesses and then medium-sized businesses. At some point along that chain, higher personal income taxes will make a difference. However, I don't think our taxes are currently so high that businesses are being strangled - just pointing out that it could/will make a difference if the rates are raised too much.

[Kepler]

Re: Convention junkies can obsess details here!

Also, there's a Invisible Obama twitter account that's pretty comical.

50k followers. Probably more people than actually watched Romney's speech.

I love Clint's spaghetti westerns, but it's fitting that the only take-away from this convention was an addled, ancient, angry white man mumbling into empty space.

[FreshFish]

Re: Convention junkies can obsess details here!

First off, I don't think that small business owners are the ones that people are thinking about when they think of rich people not paying enough taxes.

Does it really matter who people are "thinking about"? Isn't it far more important, who actually will be affected?

Most small business owners report their business income on their personal tax returns; while larger corporations file a separate tax return.

Now, if you believe that small business owners will be disproportionately effected by a raise in their personal income tax (not talking about the business, but their own take home), I'd have to wonder how that would effect their employees in the way you are implying. The tax hike would be on people making more than $250k a year.

This isn't about what I believe. If you have $15 million invested in a business, why keep it there? Why not just sell it and invest the $15 million somewhere else? if you can earn a measly 2% on your money, you'd need the business to generate $300,000 in profits to make it "worth it" to keep it going, no? Otherwise, why even bother?

More importantly, it's not the increase in the tax rate, it's singling out this one group of people for vilification that is the real problem. What's the point of expanding a business if a second-term Obama is just going to confiscate all the profits? You wonder why job growth is slow? all these new regulations make it more and more and more expensive to hire people! You make something cost more, you get less of it, right?

If you're making that kind of jack, it seems unlikely that paying a bit more is gonna send you spiraling into personal bankruptcy. To be clear, we're not talking about someone here who owns a lawn cutting business or a boutique with 10 employees. It's VERY unlikely that those people are paying themselves $250k per year.

It's not unusual for ordinary people not to understand the difference between who nominally pays the tax, and who actually bears the burden of a tax. Many small businesses pay their employees bonuses based on a percentage of after-tax profits (yes, most small business owners are happy to distribute the fruits of their success to the people who made that success possible!). If you increase the tax on business profits (reported on personal tax returns even though it is business income), then you necessarily reduce after-tax profits, which means you reduce everyone's bonus. So even though the so-called "rich" are paying the tax, all of their employees are actually burdened by the tax in the form of a lower bonus than they otherwise would receive.

Do you really expect anyone to feel bad for those poor, poor rich folk?

No, that's just silly. Yet with all this talk of "fairness", don't you think it is a bit unfair to single them out and say they are doing something wrong by being successful? why isn't he railing about the salaries paid to pro athletes and entertainers, they are a lot, lot richer than these business owners!

why stop at raising taxes on people who report their business income on their personal tax returns if it is over $250,000? why not also introduce a new supplemental income tax rate on income above $5 million? It wouldn't be because those people are disproportionately democrats by any chance, would it?

[Kepler]

Re: Convention junkies can obsess details here!

Is the incumbent party convention always second? In the 80's it always seemed like the Dems were the warm-up act to the GOP.

[Rover]

Re: Convention junkies can obsess details here!

Amusing how the lasting memory of the RNC 2012 will be Clint Eastwood talking to himself on stage in a spot on Grampa Simpson impersonation! I know the usual media lemmings will spin this as a brilliant tactical ploy, but I can't think they wanted this to happen.

Hilariously the guy does sum up conservatives. Old, white, wealthy, and grouchy.

Regarding Romney, he delivered a 'quarterly earnings' speech that CEO's deliver to investors every 3 months. Not bad by any stretch, not great, but just there. After the Eastwood debacle, I guess anything would look good.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Convention junkies can obsess details here!

Why does Romney want to start a war with Russia?

[bronconick]

Re: Convention junkies can obsess details here!

Did they seriously have an 82 year old man talk to an empty chair and think it clever?