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Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

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  • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

    Originally posted by Kepler View Post
    To be fair, when we do it we use drones, not words.

    And anyway, they're complicit. Nobody forces them to go to wedding receptions in Pakistan...

    You have a choice.
    My trouble with drones is that they make war antiseptic. When war becomes clean, it becomes easier to do. I want the stench and the horror so that when somebody decides to push the button, they know that somebody's son, daughter, wife or husband is not coming home.

    If we remember the lead up to Gulf War I, there were predictions of tens of thousands of US casualties. Great. It made us really think of a way to complete the mission without getting more than actually did die. And Bush #41 agonized over each of those 148 Americans who did not come home. Why? Because he lived through it 50 years before.

    This modern way is too clean, and it's becoming a video game - not real. Growing up on Call of Duty is not substitute for the real thing.
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    • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

      Originally posted by Foxton View Post
      What a surprise! A moron spewing republican talking points from 2008.
      Yes, morons spewing talking points is rare around here, isn't it?
      2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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      • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

        Originally posted by joecct View Post
        My trouble with drones is that they make war antiseptic. When war becomes clean, it becomes easier to do. I want the stench and the horror so that when somebody decides to push the button, they know that somebody's son, daughter, wife or husband is not coming home.

        If we remember the lead up to Gulf War I, there were predictions of tens of thousands of US casualties. Great. It made us really think of a way to complete the mission without getting more than actually did die. And Bush #41 agonized over each of those 148 Americans who did not come home. Why? Because he lived through it 50 years before.

        This modern way is too clean, and it's becoming a video game - not real. Growing up on Call of Duty is not substitute for the real thing.
        I take your point. But what's the alternative? Dresden? Berlin? Tokyo (where B-29 raids killed more than were lost in either atomic bomb attack)? As has been mentioned many times, we're fighting an asymmetrical war against Islamist facists (the "war on terror" was a way of denoting what was going on without mentioning either the "I" word or the "M" word). No armies. No uniforms (except the occasional "friendly" uniform). No national capitals to pound into jelly. No armies in the field. No amphibious landings. An enemy usually burrowed into "civilian" neighborhoods. The Gulf War I analogy does not apply here. In Gulf War I we were, in fact, fighting against a conventional army, put into the field by a national command structure.

        If we fail to use the available technology (which of course saves American lives--do we really want to see captured American pilots beheaded?), we're left with two choices: either carpet bomb them even further into the stone age or do nothing. And even though we've perhaps oversold the concept of "surgical"when it comes to smart munitions, there's absolutely no doubt by employing them, we are minimizing civilian casualties. Are you suggesting that higher body counts on both sides would reduce the risk of war? Perhaps for us, but not for the savages.

        They started this war. They put "innocent civilians" at the top of their target list. They chose the tactics. We are responding. And we are using the tactics and weapons our advanced society provides. And should continue to do so until every G.D. Islamist arsehole is dead.
        Last edited by Old Pio; 09-29-2012, 03:05 PM.
        2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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        • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

          Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
          I take your point. But what's the alternative? Dresden? Berlin? Tokyo (where B-29 raids killed more than were lost in the atomic bomb attacks)? As has been mentioned many times, we're fighting an asymmetrical war against Islamist facists (the "war on terror" was a way of denoting what was going on without mentioning either the "I" word or the "M" word). No armies. No uniforms (except the occasional "friendly" uniform). No national capitals to pound into jelly. No armies in the field. No amphibious landings. An enemy usually burrowed into "civilian" neighborhoods. The Gulf War I analogy does not apply here. In Gulf War I we were, in fact, fighting against a conventional army, put into the field by a national command structure.

          If we fail to use the available technology (which of course saves American lives--do we really want to see captured American pilots beheaded?), we're left with two choices: either carpet bomb them even further into the stone age or do nothing. And even though we've perhaps oversold the concept of "surgical"when it comes to smart munitions, there's absolutely no doubt by employing them, we are minimizing civilian casualties. Are you suggesting that higher body counts on both sides would reduce the risk of war? Perhaps for us, but not for the savages.

          They started this war. They put "innocent civilians" at the top of their target list. They chose the tactics. We are responding. And we are using the tactics and weapons our advanced society provides. And should continue to do so until every Islamist arsehole is dead.
          Maybe the horrors of WW-II kept the lid on things for 60 years or so.

          Once it becomes easy, you tend to do it again. I know we have a Executive Order about targeted executions, but maybe that's a better way to deal with things. At least it's up close and personal rather than a video game.
          CCT '77 & '78
          4 kids
          5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
          1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

          ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
          - Benjamin Franklin

          Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

          I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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          • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

            Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
            Yes, morons spewing talking points is rare around here, isn't it?
            What's funny is Foxton referencing Republican talking points from 2008 when Sowell's 4 Obama columns primarily address what Obama has done after he was elected in 2008.

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            • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

              Originally posted by joecct View Post
              Maybe the horrors of WW-II kept the lid on things for 60 years or so.

              Once it becomes easy, you tend to do it again. I know we have a Executive Order about targeted executions, but maybe that's a better way to deal with things. At least it's up close and personal rather than a video game.
              "It is well that war is so terrible, else we would grow too fond of it." -- Robert E. Lee

              Having said which, targeted executions are a great way to deal with enemy leadership if they can be effectively carried out. If the Allies had had the ability to decapitate the senior Nazi leadership in 1939 that would have saved a few hundred million lives.
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              • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

                Originally posted by joecct View Post
                Maybe the horrors of WW-II kept the lid on things for 60 years or so.

                Once it becomes easy, you tend to do it again. I know we have a Executive Order about targeted executions, but maybe that's a better way to deal with things. At least it's up close and personal rather than a video game.
                Does anybody, now or then, think it was a bad idea to clip Admiral Yamamoto?

                And would anyone have objected if we had "lobbed one into the men's room" of the Reich's Chancellery from November of '39 on?

                And the "Horrors of WWII" didn't keep us out of Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Grenada, Iraq or Afghanistan. Seems like we've learned the lessons, but others haven't. And in the days before "video game" technology, of which you seem so strongly to disapprove, we had the slaughter in the trenches of WWI and the horrors of Antietam (combined, over 20K casualties in one day!). That's preferable?

                Again, you seem to prefer tactics that would put American lives at risk. Is that what you really mean? In your view it's better to have American pilots risk their lives than to use drones? Really?

                And this use of the phrase "up close and personal" is confusing. We should require each attempt on a senior leader to be like the raid on OBL? What? You're against using technology that saves lives (on both sides of the ball) because you think the availablility of that technology makes conflict more likely? More likely? Perhaps. Much smaller and less damaging? Absolutely.
                Last edited by Old Pio; 09-29-2012, 03:55 PM.
                2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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                • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

                  Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                  "It is well that war is so terrible, else we would grow too fond of it." -- Robert E. Lee

                  Having said which, targeted executions are a great way to deal with enemy leadership if they can be effectively carried out. If the Allies had had the ability to decapitate the senior Nazi leadership in 1939 that would have saved a few hundred million lives.
                  Sure would have been nice-but the Nazis themselves had great difficulty in decapitating the senior leadership. How many assassination attempts did AH survive?
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                  • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

                    Originally posted by DrDemento View Post
                    Sure would have been nice-but the Nazis themselves had great difficulty in decapitating the senior leadership. How many assassination attempts did AH survive?
                    According to that series on the Military Channel, dozens. And not because of great security, either. Primarily just luck and Adolph's penchant for not keeping to a schedule. Take Stauffenberg's failed bomb attempt: the luck that the meeting was held in a hut and not a bunker, the luck that only one of the two devices was armed and the luck that the Colonel's briefcase was moved to the other side of that massive table leg.
                    Last edited by Old Pio; 09-29-2012, 04:01 PM.
                    2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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                    • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

                      Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                      "It is well that war is so terrible, else we would grow too fond of it." -- Robert E. Lee

                      Having said which, targeted executions are a great way to deal with enemy leadership if they can be effectively carried out. If the Allies had had the ability to decapitate the senior Nazi leadership in 1939 that would have saved a few hundred million lives.
                      Few hundred million lives? Tens of millions, sure. But in a war that only cost something like 75 million, I don't see that as possible.
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                      • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

                        Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                        Few hundred million lives?
                        Counting disease, displacement, etc.

                        But I guess one hundred million is the top estimate.
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                        • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

                          Either way, it's truly hard to put into words how many people lost their lives. I do think WWII death toll kept the world together for as long as it has. The world can ill afford another world war. Everything is far too fragile right now.
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                          College Hockey 6       College Football 0
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                          Originally posted by SanTropez
                          May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                          Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                          I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                          Originally posted by Kepler
                          When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                          He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

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                          • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

                            Originally posted by joecct View Post
                            My trouble with drones is that they make war antiseptic. When war becomes clean, it becomes easier to do. I want the stench and the horror so that when somebody decides to push the button, they know that somebody's son, daughter, wife or husband is not coming home.

                            If we remember the lead up to Gulf War I, there were predictions of tens of thousands of US casualties. Great. It made us really think of a way to complete the mission without getting more than actually did die. And Bush #41 agonized over each of those 148 Americans who did not come home. Why? Because he lived through it 50 years before.

                            This modern way is too clean, and it's becoming a video game - not real. Growing up on Call of Duty is not substitute for the real thing.
                            "One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic" -Stalin

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                            • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

                              Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                              Either way, it's truly hard to put into words how many people lost their lives. I do think WWII death toll kept the world together for as long as it has. The world can ill afford another world war. Everything is far too fragile right now.
                              No offense intended, but the casualty figures from WWII have zero to do with the probability of there being another conflict on that scale. Strategic nuclear weapons are another matter. The two great militaristic empires were crushed in the war. And the great Communist empire in Europe has collapsed. We no longer have to worry much about a massive Soviet armored thrust through the Fulda gap.
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                              • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

                                Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                                The point is partisans decide they love Sowell when in it is useful for them. He is just another club at hand. Sowell actually thinks through his arguments, whether one agrees with them or not, and that's a real problem for a party that already knows what the result of any experiment has to be before it's run.

                                In short, the flacks should be careful with this particular surrogate. He bites. They used another dude like this. His name was Colin Powell. Not real welcome at righty parties anymore.
                                I think Sowell is more than just another club at hand, principally because he does think through his arguments, and I suspect you're smart enough to realize that. Liberals are lucky that more people (right or left or center) don't read his writings since he so can so easily cut through the rhetoric from the left and show the fallacies of the liberal agenda.

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