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Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

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  • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

    Originally posted by Bill View Post
    Yep, we're already bankrupt. Defaulting on the debt (and going through sovereign bankruptcy) is the moral and ethical thing to do, which is why I highly doubt Washington will do that. Instead they'll try to pay it down with increasingly worthless dollars and thereby bring the risk of hyperinflation.
    Economically, what happens if the USA defaults on its debts?? Even with the crushing debt following the Revolutionary War, we've never done it.

    If that happens, every elected federal official should resign.
    CCT '77 & '78
    4 kids
    5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
    1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

    ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
    - Benjamin Franklin

    Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

    I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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    • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

      After reading this thread, I am buying stock in whatever companies supply the materials to manufacture tin foil, because I have a feeling its going to be more valuable than gold after Obama is re-elected.
      Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

      Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

      "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

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      • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

        Originally posted by joecct View Post
        Economically, what happens if the USA defaults on its debts?? Even with the crushing debt following the Revolutionary War, we've never done it.

        If that happens, every elected federal official should resign.
        I'm not a BK expert, but generally you pay off what portion of the debts your assets allow, restructure your company's finances (government's finances in the case), and hopefully recover and become productive again. Of course your creditors are going to take it on the chin since they won't be getting all their money back, but they have to live with the risk they took when lending you money. I think the foreign countries that are lending us money now realize that we're paying them back with more borrowed money, that the dollars we're paying them back with are generally decreasing in value, and I wonder how long they'll put up with that. They're going to start wanting to be better compensated with higher interest rates on the the Treasuries they buy. The dollar may very well lose it's status as the world reserve currency in the process, which will really cause it to be devalued. And I think that's what Washington wants; pay back the debt with increasingly worthless dollars. We'll all pay through the nose for that but Washington will find someone other than themselves to blame. I don't think they'll choose to default on the debt.

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        • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

          Defaulting on its debts is an unnecessary disaster and a classic case of the cure being worse than the disease. The US has the means to pay off its creditors, so I'm not sure how exactly an asset selloff would work (would we give the Chinese the Statue of Liberty for example?). Next, most US debt is owned by Americans and American institutions, so when the securities they hold all of a sudden lose 50-75% of their value you're going to have mass panic. Furthermore borrowing costs would skyrocket on everything and a global depression would be sure to follow as US Treasury securities are held worldwide as the so called "risk free" investment of the world. All this to accomplish...what again?

          The country's budget deficit isn't nearly as unmanagable as some would like to make it. But its going to require some work. A 1T deficit can be closed with a combination of 1) tax hikes on top earners, 2) military budget cuts, 3) domestic non military cuts, and 4) economic growth and its effect on tax receipts. For simplicity's sake allocate the 1T needed equally amongst those 4 items. Then if you want to move onto actually earning surpluses to pay down the already accumulated debt, means test the entitlement programs.
          Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

          Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

          "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

          Comment


          • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

            Originally posted by Rover View Post
            Defaulting on its debts is an unnecessary disaster and a classic case of the cure being worse than the disease. The US has the means to pay off its creditors, so I'm not sure how exactly an asset selloff would work (would we give the Chinese the Statue of Liberty for example?). Next, most US debt is owned by Americans and American institutions, so when the securities they hold all of a sudden lose 50-75% of their value you're going to have mass panic. Furthermore borrowing costs would skyrocket on everything and a global depression would be sure to follow as US Treasury securities are held worldwide as the so called "risk free" investment of the world. All this to accomplish...what again?

            The country's budget deficit isn't nearly as unmanagable as some would like to make it. But its going to require some work. A 1T deficit can be closed with a combination of 1) tax hikes on top earners, 2) military budget cuts, 3) domestic non military cuts, and 4) economic growth and its effect on tax receipts. For simplicity's sake allocate the 1T needed equally amongst those 4 items. Then if you want to move onto actually earning surpluses to pay down the already accumulated debt, means test the entitlement programs.
            I think Kepler would sell them what he calls the Confederacy.
            CCT '77 & '78
            4 kids
            5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
            1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

            ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
            - Benjamin Franklin

            Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

            I want to live forever. So far, so good.

            Comment


            • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

              Originally posted by Rover View Post
              Defaulting on its debts is an unnecessary disaster and a classic case of the cure being worse than the disease. The US has the means to pay off its creditors, so I'm not sure how exactly an asset selloff would work (would we give the Chinese the Statue of Liberty for example?). Next, most US debt is owned by Americans and American institutions, so when the securities they hold all of a sudden lose 50-75% of their value you're going to have mass panic. Furthermore borrowing costs would skyrocket on everything and a global depression would be sure to follow as US Treasury securities are held worldwide as the so called "risk free" investment of the world. All this to accomplish...what again?
              Definitely agree with all of this.

              The country's budget deficit isn't nearly as unmanagable as some would like to make it. But its going to require some work. A 1T deficit can be closed with a combination of 1) tax hikes on top earners, 2) military budget cuts, 3) domestic non military cuts, and 4) economic growth and its effect on tax receipts. For simplicity's sake allocate the 1T needed equally amongst those 4 items. Then if you want to move onto actually earning surpluses to pay down the already accumulated debt, means test the entitlement programs.
              The problem is that the more of 1, 2, and 3 that you do, the less of 4 you get - and the difference could be enough to negate any gains you made from 1, 2, and 3 in the first place. Even if you're not a cool-aid drinking Keynesian, you have to admit that if you cut government spending by hundreds of billions (as you're contemplating), the economy is going to notice.
              If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

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              • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

                Originally posted by joecct View Post
                I think Kepler would sell them what he calls the Confederacy.
                See, that's a little too broad. First of all anywhere boring needs to go. That means most of the mid west. Then deal places that cost more than they contribute and have little hope of ever turning around (Kentucky, West Virginia, Arizona, Mississippi). Keep Texas for oil and cartoonish politicians, Florida for beaches, Georgia because my wife would kill me if I advocated its sale, and Tennessee because every great country needs bourbon & hillbillies, and I already sold off Kentucky.
                Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

                Comment


                • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

                  Originally posted by joecct View Post
                  Economically, what happens if the USA defaults on its debts?? Even with the crushing debt following the Revolutionary War, we've never done it.

                  If that happens, every elected federal official should resign.
                  Nobody really knows what would, or wouldn't happen if/when the USA eventually defaults on its debts. It would be such a massive event with so many ripple effects. About all we know is it wouldn't be good, to put it mildly. Just how bad is open to speculation.
                  Originally posted by Priceless
                  Good to see you're so reasonable.
                  Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                  Very well, said.
                  Originally posted by Rover
                  A fair assessment Bob.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

                    Originally posted by Rover View Post
                    See, that's a little too broad. First of all anywhere boring needs to go. That means most of the mid west. Then deal places that cost more than they contribute and have little hope of ever turning around (Kentucky, West Virginia, Arizona, Mississippi). Keep Texas for oil and cartoonish politicians, Florida for beaches, Georgia because my wife would kill me if I advocated its sale, and Tennessee because every great country needs bourbon & hillbillies, and I already sold off Kentucky.
                    So, if we get sold off here in Arizona, then I guess we get out of being responsible for all the after effects of the default by teh USA, since we're no longer a part anymore? That sounds kinda tempting!
                    Originally posted by Priceless
                    Good to see you're so reasonable.
                    Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                    Very well, said.
                    Originally posted by Rover
                    A fair assessment Bob.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

                      Yeah, except you're most likely to get sold to Aztlan separatists. That probably won't work out too well for you.
                      "I went over the facts in my head, and admired how much uglier the situation had just become. Over the years I've learned that ignorance is more than just bliss. It's freaking orgasmic ecstasy".- Harry Dresden, Blood Rites


                      Western Michigan Bronco Hockey- 2012 Mason Cup Champions

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                      • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

                        Originally posted by Rover View Post
                        Defaulting on its debts is an unnecessary disaster and a classic case of the cure being worse than the disease. The US has the means to pay off its creditors, so I'm not sure how exactly an asset selloff would work (would we give the Chinese the Statue of Liberty for example?). Next, most US debt is owned by Americans and American institutions, so when the securities they hold all of a sudden lose 50-75% of their value you're going to have mass panic. Furthermore borrowing costs would skyrocket on everything and a global depression would be sure to follow as US Treasury securities are held worldwide as the so called "risk free" investment of the world. All this to accomplish...what again?

                        The country's budget deficit isn't nearly as unmanagable as some would like to make it. But its going to require some work. A 1T deficit can be closed with a combination of 1) tax hikes on top earners, 2) military budget cuts, 3) domestic non military cuts, and 4) economic growth and its effect on tax receipts. For simplicity's sake allocate the 1T needed equally amongst those 4 items. Then if you want to move onto actually earning surpluses to pay down the already accumulated debt, means test the entitlement programs.
                        Default, while certainly earth shaking, is a lesser evil than hyperinflation. The only means the US has for paying off it's creditor's is to borrow more money to use to pay them, which puts us further and further in debt.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

                          Originally posted by Bill View Post
                          Yep, we're already bankrupt. Defaulting on the debt (and going through sovereign bankruptcy) is the moral and ethical thing to do, which is why I highly doubt Washington will do that. Instead they'll try to pay it down with increasingly worthless dollars and thereby bring the risk of hyperinflation.
                          No, we're not. We're no more bankrupt as a country than I am as an individual. Just because I have student loans, a mortgage, and a car payment doesn't mean I'm somehow bankrupt. Likewise, just because the U.S. debt is a really, really scary number, doesn't mean we're somehow bankrupt.

                          Political unwillingness to do anything about the debt is a far cry from an inability to do so.

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                          • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

                            Originally posted by unofan View Post
                            No, we're not. We're no more bankrupt as a country than I am as an individual. Just because I have student loans, a mortgage, and a car payment doesn't mean I'm somehow bankrupt. Likewise, just because the U.S. debt is a really, really scary number, doesn't mean we're somehow bankrupt.

                            Political unwillingness to do anything about the debt is a far cry from an inability to do so.
                            The USA may not be bankrupt, but it sure as hell has shown it can't pay its bills. If I were a credit agency, I would put the USA at junk status. I'm just glad that S&P finally started to tell the truth about the USA and downgraded them, even if it was just to AA+, probably in hopes that this tyrannical government wouldn't throw them in Gitmo without trial for daring to speak against the USA.

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                            • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

                              The thing is if we let the South break off. We'd have to bail them out when they try picking a fight with Iran in a "my god is better than your god" war.
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                              • Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

                                Originally posted by FlagDUDE08 View Post
                                The USA may not be bankrupt, but it sure as hell has shown it can't pay its bills. If I were a credit agency, I would put the USA at junk status. I'm just glad that S&P finally started to tell the truth about the USA and downgraded them, even if it was just to AA+, probably in hopes that this tyrannical government wouldn't throw them in Gitmo without trial for daring to speak against the USA.
                                Is it time yet to hoard cash and gold bars, load up on tuna fish cans and water, and keep my loaded 12 gauge by the door yet? I hope this all does not interfere with my getting all my premium cable channels from Xfinity.
                                Take the shortest distance to the puck and arrive in ill humor

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