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Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

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  • Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

    Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
    Indeed. Kansas is probably a special case (having been bought and paid for by Koch, inc), but did you see what just happened in the state legislature Republican primary? They crushed 8 of the 9 most moderate Republicans. The overall balance of R/D probably won't change, but the R's who are there will be that much closer to a complete lock-step.

    "Mr. Aistrup said Tuesday’s results send a signal to the entire Republican Party: 'Sing the same tune and walk with your right foot first or face the consequences.'"
    I always get confused in these threads. Half the liberals complain that the Republicans are so organized and all, ala this post. But the other half make fun of how the Republicans can't get a decent candidate, can't get a good election strategy, etc. You guys really need to pick one theme or the other and run with it. Going both ways all the time is ponderous at best.
    Originally posted by Priceless
    Good to see you're so reasonable.
    Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
    Very well, said.
    Originally posted by Rover
    A fair assessment Bob.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
      Which of course is not the case here...as poster said nothing of the kind, but rather "If this is where we are...the GOP got us here."
      Except in Maryland and California. That is 100% on the Democrats.
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      • Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

        Originally posted by geezer View Post
        Intriguing solutions, but would likely lead to my earlier death. As I see it most of the dissatisfied folks* want the same things (some greater measure of control over their own lives back in the hands of the people, whether the primary villain is the feds or the bankers). The party leaders that rely on their votes are meanwhile convincing these protesters that their opponents are the devil in spite of these similar goals and methods. What would be needed to unify these people and effect change (even more than attrition warfare) would seem to be extremely charismatic, tech-savvy (wired-in), capable (super human?) leadership of the non-elected office kind to build a unifying message and movement. These groups came close to making change happen, but without that leadership it's hopeless. I'm not sure if that kind of charismatic leadership is possible because if that person exists, she's out making millions of dollars a year lobbying for a drug company.

        *media relations tip: "folks" are good people. "protesters" are selfish idiots.
        This is the classic problem that a plutocracy faces in office. As their policies benefit their tiny niche of well-connected insiders more and more they benefit the broad population less and less. Wedges have to be found to exploit (or manufacture) divisions in that population before it overwhelms the plutocratic masters. So it's guns, gays, Mexicans, birth control, unions, and Islamic Sleeper Cells all day, every day on corporate media outlets. Any issue that enrages people will also prevent them from recognizing that they have common interests.

        This is how it always is. What else was Jim Crow but pitting lower class whites against blacks to prevent them from becoming a unified political force? Same thing is happening today with Occupiers and TPers. It's our equivalent of a Middle Eastern tyrant whipping up religious hatred to mask his own tyranny.
        Last edited by Kepler; 08-10-2012, 10:28 AM.
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        • Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

          Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
          I always get confused in these threads. Half the liberals complain that the Republicans are so organized and all, ala this post. But the other half make fun of how the Republicans can't get a decent candidate, can't get a good election strategy, etc. You guys really need to pick one theme or the other and run with it. Going both ways all the time is ponderous at best.
          Did you just call me a liberal? I think I just heard Chomsky roll over in his grave.
          If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

          Comment


          • Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
            This is the classic problem that a plutocracy faces in office.
            You do understand, don't you, that what unifies OWS and TEA Party is that supporters of both believe that both major political parties today are equally the tools of the plutocracy, right?

            Whether it be trial attorneys or Wall St. bankers, high-level executives at large corporations or leaders of public sector unions, lobbyists or elected officials, the well-connected in either party always make sure they are well taken care of, no matter what.
            "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

            "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

            "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

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            • Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

              Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
              Did you just call me a liberal? I think I just heard Chomsky roll over in his grave.
              Yes. Any other questions? Or do you just parrot liberal positions and but are a closet conservative?

              I'm not sure Chomsky cares about your political bent.
              Last edited by Bob Gray; 08-10-2012, 11:13 AM.
              Originally posted by Priceless
              Good to see you're so reasonable.
              Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
              Very well, said.
              Originally posted by Rover
              A fair assessment Bob.

              Comment


              • Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

                Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
                Yes. Any other questions? Or do you just parrot liberal positions and but are a closet conservative?
                oh stop it Bob you are making it clear you aren't paying attention.

                It seems to me that the more thoughtful posters on these threads are neither liberal nor conservative. They actually assess the situation in front of them based on its merits with sound reasoning and empirical data, and generally don't have some overarching global "position" to defend. In other words, there is a set of consistent core principles from which each situation is viewed, not some global good vs evil world view that allows for no questions and no deviations from official orthodoxy.

                If I had to assign a label to LynahFan it probably would be libertarian, although that doesn't quite exactly fit. If I had to assign a label to myself it would be radical centrist, "hard-headed and soft-hearted" as the saying once was.
                "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                Comment


                • Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

                  My biggest complaint with politics these days: "where are the grown-ups?"

                  When our children were young, our family joke was "mothers-in-law don't want their grandchildren to fall; fathers don't want their children to get hurt too badly when they fall."

                  When the oldest child was learning to walk, my wife's mother would scurry about behind her, hands outstretched, ready to catch her if she stumbled. I noticed that this annoyed me, and rather than cause a family spat, my wife and I decided to buy a good rug with a pad, so that when our toddler fell down, it wouldn't be on a hard floor.

                  If a child doesn't fall, then s/he can't ever learn when s/he's gone too far and thereby learn appropriate balance / moderation.

                  I'm not at all saying that people deliberately should seek out pain; however, if pain is a natural consequence of certain behaviors, then the experience of pain is a useful indicator: behave differently!

                  Too much of politics today, in essense, is to remove all pain from people's lives. Then we have a nation full of adolescents and whiners sitting around waiting for someone to take care of them, suckers for the next slick demagog who promises something for nothing. "Vote for me and I'll take money from someone else and give it to you instead! Why work hard, when you can get someone else to do all the work for you?"





                  We say we admire people who struggle through adversity to find success; yet once they become successful, we want to tear them down.
                  Last edited by FreshFish; 08-10-2012, 11:31 AM.
                  "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                  "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                  "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                  "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                  Comment


                  • Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

                    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                    You do understand, don't you, that what unifies OWS and TEA Party is that supporters of both believe that both major political parties today are equally the tools of the plutocracy, right?
                    It's not true in my experience. I know people involved with the tea party movement who feel (D)s should be voted out simply for being (D)s. I suspect most of them (TP and OWS) identify with a party this way, but I also think they shouldn't.
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                    • Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

                      Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                      oh stop it Bob you are making it clear you aren't paying attention.

                      It seems to me that the more thoughtful posters on these threads are neither liberal nor conservative. They actually assess the situation in front of them based on its merits with sound reasoning and empirical data, and generally don't have some overarching global "position" to defend. In other words, there is a set of consistent core principles from which each situation is viewed, not some global good vs evil world view that allows for no questions and no deviations from official orthodoxy.

                      If I had to assign a label to LynahFan it probably would be libertarian, although that doesn't quite exactly fit. If I had to assign a label to myself it would be radical centrist, "hard-headed and soft-hearted" as the saying once was.
                      My observation is that thoughtfulness has little to no correlation to where someone lands on the political spectrum, whether liberal, conservative, in the middle (wherever that is), or other. I didn't say Lynah Fan wasn't thoughtful, just liberal. Kepler is very liberal, but for the most part his posts show thoughtfulness even if I don't often agree with him. Parrot was probably not the best word to use for Lynah, maybe espouse would be better. To claim Lynah doesn't espouse at least certain liberal positions is to simply not pay attention.

                      Most people like to think of themselves as centrist. I know people who are very liberal or who are a lot more conservative than I am who are convinced they are pretty centrist in their views. There's a sort of built in desire to be considered centrist no matter where folks land on the political spectrum. I'd tend to say you're centrist in many ways.
                      Originally posted by Priceless
                      Good to see you're so reasonable.
                      Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                      Very well, said.
                      Originally posted by Rover
                      A fair assessment Bob.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

                        Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
                        Yes. Any other questions? Or do you just parrot liberal positions and but are a closet conservative?

                        I'm not sure Chomsky cares about your political bent.
                        You think LynahFan is a liberal?

                        Yikes.

                        I don't think there's a better example of an old style, 70's, small-l libertarian on this board.

                        You must think that anybody left of you on any issue is a "liberal."

                        Edit: OK, you cleared it up in your next post. But I take issue with this:

                        To claim Lynah doesn't espouse at least certain liberal positions is to simply not pay attention.
                        LynahFan's espousing of a "liberal" position on, say, gay marriage could just as easily be construed as liberals espousing a libertarian position on that issue. I can see what you are saying, but I interpreted the thrust of your original statement as saying he is more liberal than conservative. There's no logical connection between those two assertions.

                        (Of course, a true libertarian would argue that he is a conservative across the board, and the problem is that the mainstream right in the US has abused the label of "conservative" for their radically unconservative politics on social issues and foreign affairs. But Lynah can speak for himself far more eloquently on that than I can.)
                        Last edited by Kepler; 08-10-2012, 11:59 AM.
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                        • Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

                          Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
                          Did you just call me a liberal? I think I just heard Chomsky roll over in his grave.
                          Dont mind Bob...he doesnt actually pay attention to what anyone ACTUALLY says just what he thinks they said.

                          Basically, because you dont want all immigrants to be bug zapped by an electric fence along the Arizona border or you might support Gay Rights you are obviously a whiny liberal ********* walking around with your hammer and sickle clothed in the New York Times and waiting in line to go down on Obama.
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                          • Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

                            Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                            You do understand, don't you, that what unifies OWS and TEA Party is that supporters of both believe that both major political parties today are equally the tools of the plutocracy, right?
                            Given that it's exactly what I said below, um, yeah, I think I understand that.

                            It must be your "radical centrism" that prevents you from seeing when a liberal posts something you purport to believe.
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                            • Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

                              Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                              You think LynahFan is a liberal?

                              Yikes.

                              I don't think there's a better example of an old style, 70's, small-l libertarian on this board.

                              You must think that anybody left of you on any issue is a "liberal."
                              It really doesn't bother me that all the liberals jump on and claim that someone isn't liberal. After all, a lot of you folks don't even admit you're liberal, let alone far left. Maybe progressive, or more likely moderate.

                              If Lynah espouses more liberal views I'll change my opinion. Lynah certainly isn't hard left like you or Rover or Handy, etc.
                              Originally posted by Priceless
                              Good to see you're so reasonable.
                              Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                              Very well, said.
                              Originally posted by Rover
                              A fair assessment Bob.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

                                Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                                Dont mind Bob...he doesnt actually pay attention to what anyone ACTUALLY says just what he thinks they said.

                                Basically, because you dont want all immigrants to be bug zapped by an electric fence along the Arizona border or you might support Gay Rights you are obviously a whiny liberal ********* walking around with your hammer and sickle clothed in the New York Times and waiting in line to go down on Obama.
                                Do I have to tell you to get off my lawn again! Just mowed it and now the blades are getting trampled. No respect I say!
                                Originally posted by Priceless
                                Good to see you're so reasonable.
                                Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                                Very well, said.
                                Originally posted by Rover
                                A fair assessment Bob.

                                Comment

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