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Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

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  • Old Pio
    replied
    Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

    Apparantly the Aurora shooter was making threats to kill people months before he went on his rampage.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/24...est=latestnews

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Pio
    replied
    Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

    The more we learn about Holmes the more his case seems to parallel Tuscon shooter Loughner and Woo Tang Klan at Virginia Tech. Everyone knew Holmess was two tacos short of a combo plate yet nobody could or would do anything about it. Pity.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/23...spect-records/

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Pio
    replied
    Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

    Originally posted by bigblue_dl View Post
    Its the Ron White crazy person joke.

    Paraphrasing: 'There are 2 types of crazy people, some people roll their poop into the little balls and eat it. If you're crazy enough to roll your poop into little balls and eat it, then I'll give you food and shelter for your entire life. But if you're crazy and go out and kill people, kill productive members of our society, well, you should have rolled your poop into little balls and ate it instead.'
    There was a variation of that in "Hoosiers:"

    Coach Norman Dale: First of all, let's be real friendly here, okay? My name is Norm. Secondly, your coaching days are over.
    George: Look, mister, there's... two kinds of dumb, uh... guy that gets naked and runs out in the snow and barks at the moon, and, uh, guy who does the same thing in my living room. First one don't matter, the second one you're kinda forced to deal with.
    Coach Norman Dale: Translate. That some sort of threat?
    George: I don't know why Cletus drug your tired old bones in here, he musta owed you somethin' fierce. Fact is, mister, you start screwin' up this team, I'll personally hide-strap your *** to a pine rail and send you up the Monon Line!
    [George angrily turns and storms out of the gym]
    Coach Norman Dale: Leave the ball, will you, George?


    ABC is reporting that the shooter's shrink notified campus police weeks before the event. In doing so, she apparantly broke her confidence with Holmes. Evidently Colorado law permits her to do that when confronted with an imminent threat. Stay tuned.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/james-holme...ry?id=16943858
    Last edited by Old Pio; 08-23-2012, 09:39 PM.

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  • bigblue_dl
    replied
    Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

    Originally posted by Almington View Post
    From what I understand, the BETA is in place to ensure that there exists a structure so that people at the school have a place to go if they have a problem and ensure that they get support, to try and prevent people and issues from falling through the cracks. It seems that it DID work in this case, except that the person in question left school before they could do anything, if he had not left school things may have ended differently.

    These type of things are mental health issues and that is going to be the only effective way to deal with them. The current system give the individual the strongest protection until the individual displays some definitive danger to others. Sadly this means that in hindsight it is obvious that the individual was troubled, what isn'tis clear how to discriminate between those that will act from those that display similar traits/symptoms and will never act.

    In this case, it's clear that the stress of graduate school was taking a toll and his failed oral exam was the "trigger" that set him down the path that resulted in so much suffering and sadness for innocent people.

    No system can be made that will completely prevent something like this without completely trampling on an individual's rights and privacy.
    Its the Ron White crazy person joke.

    Paraphrasing: 'There are 2 types of crazy people, some people roll their poop into the little balls and eat it. If you're crazy enough to roll your poop into little balls and eat it, then I'll give you food and shelter for your entire life. But if you're crazy and go out and kill people, kill productive members of our society, well, you should have rolled your poop into little balls and ate it instead.'

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Pio
    replied
    Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

    Turns out one of the victims in Aurora, a baby-faced 26-year old Navy vet, may have died trying to stop Holmes.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/04...#ixzz22bMc3600

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Pio
    replied
    Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

    Originally posted by joecct View Post
    Pio

    I would submit that the 10 "protocols" are now open for negotiation.

    (a) Kids respect their parents?
    (b) Murder is still a good business
    (c) Who cares who you have sex with?
    (d) Stealing is bad, if you get caught
    (e) We want more and more and more.
    The "protocols" haven't changed, we have. And there are no first hand accounts available about enforcement.
    Last edited by Old Pio; 08-04-2012, 04:10 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • joecct
    replied
    Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

    Pio

    I would submit that the 10 "protocols" are now open for negotiation.

    (a) Kids respect their parents?
    (b) Murder is still a good business
    (c) Who cares who you have sex with?
    (d) Stealing is bad, if you get caught
    (e) We want more and more and more.

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Pio
    replied
    Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

    Originally posted by Almington View Post
    I don't think that we are that far apart really,

    With each event we do get better at identifying and preventing these incidents, and we never know how many of these incidents are prevented because the person will get the help that they need and no one will be harmed.

    The issue is that NO system will ever be 100% effective, between the limits on reporting information and the difficulty in putting all the pieces of information together a priori. I hope that all schools evaluate how they handle withdrawing students with respect to having them receive mental health counseling in the future.

    Part of the issue is that medical professionals who disclose patient information open themselves to not just liability lawsuits, but also to losing their medical licence and ability to earn a living.

    In cases like this, until it becomes clear that someone didn't follow protocols and was negligent, I give them a benefit of the doubt because it is possible to do everything right and not have been able to prevent what happened.
    There are only 10 "protocols" that can never be changed or modified. The rest were created by us and can be changed by us as we see fit. However, given the rarity of these events, it may be nearly impossible to prevent them. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

    Yes, of course, it's possible to "do everything right" and still things go wrong. I'd imagine that's the case in most of these episodes. But in your strenuous defense of these people you conveniently overlook the possibility that they might also be feather bedding, bureaucratic drones who badly screwed the pooch. I'm not sure one way or another, but you seem to be. Why? And why have you made up your mind, absent a complete exegesis of the facts in this case? The legal seminars are interesting, but hardly dispositive.
    Last edited by Old Pio; 08-04-2012, 03:51 PM.

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  • Almington
    replied
    Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

    Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
    Thanks (I hate it when somebody sums me up better than I did ) As I've said, if we're going to err here, it should be on the side of protecting the rights of individuals. We aren't that far removed from the Soviets slapping political dissidents into looney bins and pumping them full of drugs. However, realistically I don't see that as much of a risk. Except perhaps for greedy children wanting to get their hands on the money by getting rid of their parents.

    But, as you ask, "are we doing the best we can?" The vast majority of these people are no danger to others. Only a microscopic percentage of them wind up shooting up theatres or colleges or high schools. Sadly, the ones who might explode don't glow in the dark. Given the legal framework and the deeply held cultural instinct for government to "leave me the h*ll alone" identifying and dealing with crazies may be impossible.

    Yet, in many (most?) of these cases, we learn that there WERE people who were concerned, that an effort WAS made to cull them from the herd. But it came to naught. A reminder, Nikki Giovanni who gave that marvelous speech at the VT memorial service, had the shooter in one of her classes. And she told the administration in effect, either he goes or I go. He totally creeped her out. And many of his classmates, too. Many in the university reached out to the kid (the chairman of the English department was tutoring him, because nobody wanted to be in class with him). Why then, could that one next step not be taken? That one phone call not be made?

    And some of these people disguise their madness. Recall that Klebold and Harris had some run-ins with the law over stealing radios from cars. Among other things, they were required to write essays on overcoming their anger. And the people responsible for reviewing those essays were totally snowed. And issued glowing reviews about how much "progress" the boys were making. Turned out to be a bit premature. Beause they were already planning their rampage. Just a few days before they shot up Columbine, they went to their prom. Recall, on the day of the shootings, one of their buddies showed up late to school and they told him to go home, that he didn't need to be there that day.

    But when someone's behavior is called into question. And well-intentioned professionals are deeply concerned (Virginia Tech, Aurora) but are unable to take that one final step for whatever reason, then I think it's fair to ask: Why? And what can we do next time around? And is it possible to make changes in the "system" to better protect us from these murderous rampages, without diminishing the freedoms we all enjoy?

    Settling back into "we did the best we could," not only ensures we'll never be free of these outrages, but also suggests people who may have droped the ball, didn't. A review of events has been announced.

    http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...ater-shootings
    I don't think that we are that far apart really,

    With each event we do get better at identifying and preventing these incidents, and we never know how many of these incidents are prevented because the person will get the help that they need and no one will be harmed.

    The issue is that NO system will ever be 100% effective, between the limits on reporting information and the difficulty in putting all the pieces of information together a priori. I hope that all schools evaluate how they handle withdrawing students with respect to having them receive mental health counseling in the future.

    Part of the issue is that medical professionals who disclose patient information open themselves to not just liability lawsuits, but also to losing their medical licence and ability to earn a living.

    In cases like this, until it becomes clear that someone didn't follow protocols and was negligent, I give them a benefit of the doubt because it is possible to do everything right and not have been able to prevent what happened.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rube
    replied
    Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

    Originally posted by Slap Shot View Post
    Sad but true?

    OP makes some very valid points on this subject, but as I noted earlier I'm not sure how we go about combatting this when John Doe doesn't notify someone and even then how law enforcement et al goes about responding. To OP's credit his point is, "are we really doing all that we can" without skirting civil rights and I think he's someone that would be a big defender of such were it to come into question.
    And I agree with that. However, as it stands, I do not encourage breaking any laws to do the right thing (in most cases*). That's all.



    *Say I see some guy hit a woman. Haul off and hit her. I would then explain to him why he shouldn't hit her. And I probably wouldn't use just words.

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Pio
    replied
    Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

    Originally posted by Slap Shot View Post
    Sad but true?

    OP makes some very valid points on this subject, but as I noted earlier I'm not sure how we go about combatting this when John Doe doesn't notify someone and even then how law enforcement et al goes about responding. To OP's credit his point is, "are we really doing all that we can" without skirting civil rights and I think he's someone that would be a big defender of such were it to come into question.

    Thanks (I hate it when somebody sums me up better than I did ) As I've said, if we're going to err here, it should be on the side of protecting the rights of individuals. We aren't that far removed from the Soviets slapping political dissidents into looney bins and pumping them full of drugs. However, realistically I don't see that as much of a risk. Except perhaps for greedy children wanting to get their hands on the money by getting rid of their parents.

    But, as you ask, "are we doing the best we can?" The vast majority of these people are no danger to others. Only a microscopic percentage of them wind up shooting up theatres or colleges or high schools. Sadly, the ones who might explode don't glow in the dark. Given the legal framework and the deeply held cultural instinct for government to "leave me the h*ll alone" identifying and dealing with crazies may be impossible.

    Yet, in many (most?) of these cases, we learn that there WERE people who were concerned, that an effort WAS made to cull them from the herd. But it came to naught. A reminder, Nikki Giovanni who gave that marvelous speech at the VT memorial service, had the shooter in one of her classes. And she told the administration in effect, either he goes or I go. He totally creeped her out. And many of his classmates, too. Many in the university reached out to the kid (the chairman of the English department was tutoring him, because nobody wanted to be in class with him). Why then, could that one next step not be taken? That one phone call not be made?

    And some of these people disguise their madness. Recall that Klebold and Harris had some run-ins with the law over stealing radios from cars. Among other things, they were required to write essays on overcoming their anger. And the people responsible for reviewing those essays were totally snowed. And issued glowing reviews about how much "progress" the boys were making. Turned out to be a bit premature. Beause they were already planning their rampage. Just a few days before they shot up Columbine, they went to their prom. Recall, on the day of the shootings, one of their buddies showed up late to school and they told him to go home, that he didn't need to be there that day.

    But when someone's behavior is called into question. And well-intentioned professionals are deeply concerned (Virginia Tech, Aurora) but are unable to take that one final step for whatever reason, then I think it's fair to ask: Why? And what can we do next time around? And is it possible to make changes in the "system" to better protect us from these murderous rampages, without diminishing the freedoms we all enjoy?

    Settling back into "we did the best we could," not only ensures we'll never be free of these outrages, but also suggests people who may have droped the ball, didn't. A review of events has been announced.

    http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...ater-shootings
    Last edited by Old Pio; 08-03-2012, 10:01 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Slap Shot
    replied
    Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

    Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
    That would be known as the Paterno Theorum, no?
    Sad but true?

    OP makes some very valid points on this subject, but as I noted earlier I'm not sure how we go about combatting this when John Doe doesn't notify someone and even then how law enforcement et al goes about responding. To OP's credit his point is, "are we really doing all that we can" without skirting civil rights and I think he's someone that would be a big defender of such were it to come into question.
    Last edited by Slap Shot; 08-03-2012, 07:38 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • joecct
    replied
    Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

    Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
    That would be known as the Paterno Theorum, no?
    No, no, no. It's the Paterno corollary to the Bishop Theorum.

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Pio
    replied
    Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

    Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
    I didn't say we shouldn't learn something. I said that right now, as it stands, no one will do more than they have to, because of the laws and the fear of getting sued if one doesn't follow said laws.
    That would be known as the Paterno Theorum, no?

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rube
    replied
    Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

    Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
    It is not hindsight to suggest that we might learn something from what went on here with an eye toward possibly preventing further tragedies. Otherwise we all need to shut the eff up about these events. They're just the price we pay for a 2nd Amendment and letting crazies roam the streets. It's not impossible to ever so slightly adjust the balance here as between the rights of the individual and the rights of the community.

    Was it the Beadle in Oliver Twist who said: "If the law supposes that the law is a a*s. A idiot?"
    I didn't say we shouldn't learn something. I said that right now, as it stands, no one will do more than they have to, because of the laws and the fear of getting sued if one doesn't follow said laws.

    Leave a comment:

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