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  • Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

    Originally posted by joecct View Post
    And then, folks is the fine state of Maryland, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Democratic Party, where if you threaten via the phone to kill everyone, it's only a misdemeanor.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...bJPX_blog.html
    No serious person disagrees with the notion that in terms of forced commitment, we should err on the side of the individual. We don't want to be like the Soviet Union, where mental hospitals were part of the Gulag. But in the case of that clown in Maryland the relevant laws should be strengthened and the maximum punishment handed down. This isn't "cute," especially coming so close on the heels of the slaughter in Aurora. Cops and first responders have to take these kinds of threats at face value. Hammer this clown into guava. Maybe the next idiot will think twice.
    2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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    • Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

      Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
      No serious person disagrees with the notion that in terms of forced commitment, we should err on the side of the individual. We don't want to be like the Soviet Union, where mental hospitals were part of the Gulag. But in the case of that clown in Maryland the relevant laws should be strengthened and the maximum punishment handed down. This isn't "cute," especially coming so close on the heels of the slaughter in Aurora. Cops and first responders have to take these kinds of threats at face value. Hammer this clown into guava. Maybe the next idiot will think twice.
      Ya...tough one. You have a threat which all by itself hurts society...vs. free speech and imprisonment without an actual crime.

      I guess I would err on the side of not handing out a misdemeanor...but instead turn that penalty into a thorough background investigation and automatic search warrant which may turn up other prosecutable criminal activities.
      Go Gophers!

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      • Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

        Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
        Ya...tough one. You have a threat which all by itself hurts society...vs. free speech and imprisonment without an actual crime.

        I guess I would err on the side of not handing out a misdemeanor...but instead turn that penalty into a thorough background investigation and automatic search warrant which may turn up other prosecutable criminal activities.
        Isn't that fishing for a crime when one may not exist? Why not just torture the poor guy until he admits to High Treason?
        CCT '77 & '78
        4 kids
        5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
        1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

        ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
        - Benjamin Franklin

        Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

        I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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        • Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

          Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
          Then why the fook have a "Crisis Intervention Team" in the first place? That is exactly the type of thinking that let that little Korean nutbar loose at VTU and allowed Loughner to shoot the Congressman and kill all those folks in Tucson. Admittedly it's a pretty small sample size. But it doesn't seem like the ultra-legalistic approach is working, does it? And I'm curious to know if the "BETA" team was formed in reaction to the slaughter at VTU.

          The thing to do here, instead of trying to figure out how we can deal more effectively with these barking moonbats, is to continue to offer excuses for the failures of the system and the people who work in it. Yeah, that's the ticket.
          From what I understand, the BETA is in place to ensure that there exists a structure so that people at the school have a place to go if they have a problem and ensure that they get support, to try and prevent people and issues from falling through the cracks. It seems that it DID work in this case, except that the person in question left school before they could do anything, if he had not left school things may have ended differently.

          These type of things are mental health issues and that is going to be the only effective way to deal with them. The current system give the individual the strongest protection until the individual displays some definitive danger to others. Sadly this means that in hindsight it is obvious that the individual was troubled, what isn'tis clear how to discriminate between those that will act from those that display similar traits/symptoms and will never act.

          In this case, it's clear that the stress of graduate school was taking a toll and his failed oral exam was the "trigger" that set him down the path that resulted in so much suffering and sadness for innocent people.

          No system can be made that will completely prevent something like this without completely trampling on an individual's rights and privacy.
          Last edited by Almington; 08-02-2012, 05:56 PM.

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          • Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

            Originally posted by joecct View Post
            Isn't that fishing for a crime when one may not exist?
            Not a strong opinion on my part...just an idea that crossed my mind.

            Perhaps, probable cause?
            Go Gophers!

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            • Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

              Originally posted by Almington View Post
              From what I understand, the BETA is in place to ensure that there exists a structure so that people at the school have a place to go if they have a problem and ensure that they get support, to try and prevent people and issues from falling through the cracks. It seems that it DID work in this case, except that the person in question left school before they could do anything, if he had not left school things may have ended differently.

              These type of things are mental health issues and that is going to be the only effective way to deal with them. The current system give the individual the strongest protection until the individual displays some definitive danger to others. Sadly this means that in hindsight it is obvious that the individual was troubled, what isn'tis clear how to discriminate between those that will act from those that display similar traits/symptoms and will never act.

              In this case, it's clear that the stress of graduate school was taking a toll and his failed oral exam was the "trigger" that set him down the path that resulted in so much suffering and sadness for innocent people.

              No system can be made that will completely prevent something like this without completely trampling on an individual's rights and privacy.
              A stunningly firm grasp of the obvious. You're right. There's nothing we can do to identify and drop a net over these people. So we shouldn't even try. Perfect. You plan to continue your defense of the indefensible by referring to Holmes' time line? How much advance notice do these people need before they spring into action? Weeks? Months? How hard is it to call the public health authorities? "Not my yob, man."

              He evidently sent a detailed outline of his plans to the shrink, she in turn, notified the vaunted BETA team, which in turn, did nothing. Only in a parallel universe would anyone describe as having "worked" a system which left bodies stacked like cordwood.
              Last edited by Old Pio; 08-02-2012, 06:30 PM.
              2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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              • Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

                Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                Ya...tough one. You have a threat which all by itself hurts society...vs. free speech and imprisonment without an actual crime.

                I guess I would err on the side of not handing out a misdemeanor...but instead turn that penalty into a thorough background investigation and automatic search warrant which may turn up other prosecutable criminal activities.
                No freedom is without limits. Does yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre ring any bells?
                2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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                • Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

                  Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
                  A stunningly firm grasp of the obvious. You're right. There's nothing we can do to identify and drop a net over these people. So we shouldn't even try. Perfect. You plan to continue your defense of the indefensible by referring to Holmes' time line? How much advance notice do these people need before they spring into action? Weeks? Months?

                  He evidently sent a detailed outline of his plans to the shrink, she in turn, notified the vaunted BETA team, which in turn, did nothing.
                  What matter isn't time, but information. A person must present a clear danger to themselves or others before their confidential medical records can be released.

                  An outline that was only discovered AFTER the event (that said, what he sent has not been officially released) so it seems unfair to judge them for not taking action on information that they did not know.

                  If anyone at the university had known what he was going to do, they would have taken action. Because they didn't take action they didn't know that ANY act of violence was imminent or even likely.

                  What do you propose, that every student who seeks mental health counseling at college for depression and anxiety gets rounded up and institutionalized? That any of the 50% of students who leave graduate school without graduating be forced to undergo a psychiatric exit screening? How to you propose stopping those that will act while not trampling on the individual liberties and rights of everyone else?

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                  • Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

                    Originally posted by Almington View Post
                    What matter isn't time, but information. A person must present a clear danger to themselves or others before their confidential medical records can be released.

                    An outline that was only discovered AFTER the event (that said, what he sent has not been officially released) so it seems unfair to judge them for not taking action on information that they did not know.

                    If anyone at the university had known what he was going to do, they would have taken action. Because they didn't take action they didn't know that ANY act of violence was imminent or even likely.

                    What do you propose, that every student who seeks mental health counseling at college for depression and anxiety gets rounded up and institutionalized? That any of the 50% of students who leave graduate school without graduating be forced to undergo a psychiatric exit screening? How to you propose stopping those that will act while not trampling on the individual liberties and rights of everyone else?
                    Please spare me your ultra-legalisms. That model didn't work, did it? This nutbar evidently sent a detailed exegesis of his plans to a shrink. And because of your legalistic approach, nothing was done. Whether anyone saw his threat or not is unfortunate, but something convinced his shrink to call the BETA team. And if he was no longer on campus, they should have followed up. But they didn't. And you say that was an example of the system "working." Sort of like the underwear bomber.

                    As I've said now three times, these episodes will keep happening as long as people like you wave their hands and say "nothing can be done." "Protect the rights of the individual, blah, blah, blah." Isn't it at least theoretically possible that a revue of this episode might uncover some course of action that would have prevented the tragedy? But in your world we do nothing, and just supinely accept that Holmes is the price we pay for living in a free society.

                    I believe people who make detailed threats of carnage in a public space should be investigated, by the cops, public health officials or somebody. We can do a better job than we have been doing without ushering in your doomsday scenario. Why are you so insistent on defending this failure and these incompetents?

                    This "either/or" scenario you're pushing is unrealistic, fairly juvenile and guaranteed to produce more Holmes.
                    Last edited by Old Pio; 08-02-2012, 07:28 PM.
                    2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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                    • Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

                      Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
                      Please spare me your ultra-legalisms. That model didn't work, did it? This nutbar evidently sent a detailed exegesis of his plans to a shrink. And because of your legalistic approach, nothing was done. Whether anyone saw his threat or not is unfortunate, but something convinced his shrink to call the BETA team. And if he was no longer on campus, they should have followed up. But they didn't. And you say that was an example of the system "working." Sort of like the underwear bomber.

                      As I've said now three times, these episodes will keep happening as long as people like you wave their hands and say "nothing can be done." "Protect the rights of the individual, blah, blah, blah." Isn't it at least theoretically possible that a revue of this episode might uncover some course of action that would have prevented the tragedy? But in your world we do nothing, and just supinely accept that Holmes is the price we pay for living in a free society.

                      I believe people who make detailed threats of carnage in a public space should be investigated, by the cops, public health officials or somebody. We can do a better job than we have been doing without ushering in your doomsday scenario. Why are you so insistent on defending this failure and these incompetents?

                      This "either/or" scenario you're pushing is unrealistic, fairly juvenile and guaranteed to produce more Holmes.
                      He didn't make any threats that ANYONE knew of before he shot up the theater and killed 12 people. The package was only found AFTER the event. How can anyone investigate something that they don't know about?

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                      • Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

                        Originally posted by Almington View Post
                        He didn't make any threats that ANYONE knew of before he shot up the theater and killed 12 people. The package was only found AFTER the event. How can anyone investigate something that they don't know about?
                        Then what was it he did or said that spooked his shrink enough to call in the vaunted BETA team? And why did they do nothing? Not an e-mail or a phone call or anything. Nothing. Is nothing your plan?
                        2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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                        • Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

                          More on this possible missed opportunity to avoid slaughter from the Denver Post. While I readily admit it's possible nothing could have been done to avert this massacre, I'm also thinking the "he's no longer our problem" defense being offered here falls far short of the mark.

                          http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...m?source=email
                          2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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                          • Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

                            Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
                            Then what was it he did or said that spooked his shrink enough to call in the vaunted BETA team? And why did they do nothing? Not an e-mail or a phone call or anything. Nothing. Is nothing your plan?
                            We don't know why she was concerned, I suspect that it may come out in the future. Unless it was a direct threat to the health and safety of someone, doctor-patient confidentiality would prevent her from contacting law enforcement.

                            Once he left the University, the BETA could have meet, but unless they had evidence of a credible threat, they wouldn't have been able to do much anyway as he was outside the universities control.

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                            • Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

                              Originally posted by Almington View Post
                              We don't know why she was concerned, I suspect that it may come out in the future. Unless it was a direct threat to the health and safety of someone, doctor-patient confidentiality would prevent her from contacting law enforcement.

                              Once he left the University, the BETA could have meet, but unless they had evidence of a credible threat, they wouldn't have been able to do much anyway as he was outside the universities control.
                              Jeebus. They could have called the cops. They could have called his parents. You just absolutely won't give on this uber-legal analysis, will you? All I've suggested is they could have done more. And they should have at least tried. And the fact that they didn't and 12 people are dead you have claimed is evidence that something "worked."
                              Last edited by Old Pio; 08-02-2012, 11:27 PM.
                              2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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                              • Re: Rampage in Colorado Movie theater.

                                Hindsight is always 20/20. In this day and age, sadly, you have to follow every law to a "t" so as to not open yourself up to a lawsuit. It's sad, yes, but that's the way it is. The minimum of "we did what we legally had to do, nothing more" is standard now.
                                Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
                                Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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