Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

I wouldn't dismiss high speed rail projects so quickly.

Frequently big game changing infrastructure projects include upfront pain...but have huge long term benefits. From national park system to the TVA to the interstate system to projects like the Eisenhower tunnel. Locally I can tell you our light rail has turned out it be a great success and...independent studies by Accounting giant McGladrey confirmed that our Metrodome used $33M public funds in '82 and to date has generated an estimated $319M in incremental tax revenue alone (which says nothing of other tangential benefits).

In the end, need to prioritize and correctly set the budget.

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

As opposed to your excellent argument that we should have funded Boeing's project 40 years ago, for which there was no clear market purpose, just because, "hey - you never know!" Why stop there - why not have the government invest in lottery tickets, too?

When did I make that argument?

[LynahFan]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Is that what I said? You're not aware that the Concorde flew for decades? This is news to you? I'll say it again, since you evidently didn't process the information: Boeing had orders for well over 100 of the planes. That's miles awy from "hey - you never know." My guess is, that they would have delivered even more once the word got out how good the plane was.

You're trying to lecture an aerospace engineer about Concorde or SST? Too funny. Guess how many orders BA/Aerospatiale had for Concorde before it was built? Yep - around 100. Concorde flew for decades and was a huge money pit that in no way generated enough economic benefits to justify the cost that the British and French governments ended up sinking into it. Boeing's offering would have turned out no differently but they had the wisdom to cut their losses and not build the thing out of sheer stubborn pride.

But hey, whenever anyone advocates that we should pump billions of taxpayer dollars into the aerospace industry, who am I to argue?

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Since you seem to be obtuse on this question: I'm not proposing a 1971 SST for today. Got it? So all of your profound 40 year old arguments are really not on point.

I was referring to the present lack of interest by both major airplane manufacturers in the development of a new SST - to me, this indicates there is little-to-no market for such a product, and taking the economic risk of produce airplanes for which there is no reasonable market is a terrible business model in the present aircraft/airline industry. If the interest from the airlines is not there, why would it be in their interest to invest the R&D money? I'm fairly confident that if a couple of the bigger airlines were to come to one or both of the manufacturers and say, "Yes, we're interested in a modern SST for our Pacific and Atlantic routes, and we can assure you firm orders of 25-50 to start, with options on another 25-50", then the R&D money would be allocated and government funding sought.

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

I was referring to the present lack of interest by both major airplane manufacturers in the development of a new SST - to me, this indicates there is little-to-no market for such a product, and taking the economic risk of produce airplanes for which there is no reasonable market is a terrible business model in the present aircraft/airline industry. If the interest from the airlines is not there, why would it be in their interest to invest the R&D money? I'm fairly confident that if a couple of the bigger airlines were to come to one or both of the manufacturers and say, "Yes, we're interested in a modern SST for our Pacific and Atlantic routes, and we can assure you firm orders of 25-50 to start, with options on another 25-50", then the R&D money would be allocated and government funding sought.

Google reveals numerous articles about research into hypersonic transports, much (most?) of it by European and other foreign interests. I don't think that is indicative of a "present lack of interest." Actually, it sets up another scenario where we get our a*s handed to us for lack of vision. You continue to refer to an SST. Nobody is suggesting that. I'm still not convinced you understand what I'm talking about here. I'm optimistic because some sort of hypersonice vehicle figures to be the delivery system in Prompt Global Strike and DOD generally gets what DOD wants.

We have dropped the ball with space exploration. Let's not make that mistake again. As i said earlier, in the abstract, I have no problem with high speed rail and what it can mean for the future of transportation in this country. It's just that right now, California doesn't strike me as the place to start. This is a state choking on its own vomit. And this project doesn't strike me as the appropriate starting point either. Hypersonic transport strikes me as something in our future and we can either lead or follow. I prefer to lead.

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

You're trying to lecture an aerospace engineer about Concorde or SST? Too funny. Guess how many orders BA/Aerospatiale had for Concorde before it was built? Yep - around 100. Concorde flew for decades and was a huge money pit that in no way generated enough economic benefits to justify the cost that the British and French governments ended up sinking into it. Boeing's offering would have turned out no differently but they had the wisdom to cut their losses and not build the thing out of sheer stubborn pride.

But hey, whenever anyone advocates that we should pump billions of taxpayer dollars into the aerospace industry, who am I to argue?

I'm not lecturing anybody about anything. i don't know who's an aerospace engineer or who's a honey dipper (although I have my suspicions). I do know that part of what has made America great is being the world leader in technology. And we shouldn't voluntarily give up that position. Or start wearing Jimmy Carter cardigans again. I know that since the Great Society, we've spent trillions of dollars trying to help the less fortunate. And what has it gotten us? If we were to apply the same standards used to allocate those funds and "pump billions of dollars into the aerosspace industry," I'm guessing we'd be better off. I know that Texas idiot Sheila Jackson Lee is proposing federal "anti-bullying" funds. If that camel's nose ever gets under the tent, how many billions of dollars will be thrown down that rat hole?

And the politicization of the funding for the American SST by Congress was or was not "sheer stubborn pride?" Another poster who thinks hindsight make him prescient. FWIW at the time the project was cancelled, Wiki says Boeing had 115orders from 25 airlines, the Concorde 75 orders from 16 airlines.

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Any comments on government support for space travel? Was the old model (NASA alone)better than the new model (a mix)?

Edit: Let's cut senior benefits- UK style. http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18778359

[pirate]

ROTFLMAO. That's a good one.

So, nobody was Influenced by the Palin choice? Quayle? Even Biden had an impact...if Obama had picked somebody with no foreign policy experience it would have hurt him.

While it becomes trite, they are literally one second from being President.

[mookie1995]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

So there should be no reason for the government to subsidize road travel on an ongoing basis. Roads should all be privatized and any revenue should go to repair and upkeep on the roads. Let the road system earn its way into the infrastructure on its own merits. Interesting idea.

i believe his post was SST or HiSpeed rail. you notice you do that a lot?? ignore the point or question and throw something obvious out there that nobody was talking about?

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

i believe his post was SST or HiSpeed rail. you notice you do that a lot?? ignore the point or question and throw something obvious out there that nobody was talking about?

No, I point out fallacies in the argument by extending the argument to other examples. For instance, while he was pointing out that high speed rail (I never mentioned SST) should "earn its way" he apparently forgot that roads and bridges get plenty of money from the government (read: a subsidy). So it makes sense that if you don't want the government providing a subsidy for rail, you would be against providing a subsidy for roads...unless of course, you're a hypocrite....and I'm sure no one on this board is a hypocrite!

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

So, there are two groups that could have some impact...undecideds that will measure the issues, watch the debates, review the VP nominees etc and then pick the best candidate according to their judgment of who will best run the country AND those weak commits who will be influenced by which one does better on Leno, says something dumb, wears a goofy hat, insults bacon eaters or trips on the stairs (some of these people are already polling in support of one candidate but would switch if one of the above should happen).

Now, I'm not saying those groups will swing anything one way or the other...but there are two parts to them...potential for increased voters if one of the candidates engages/enrages a sizable chunk of people and/or shifting market share if one gets a sizable chunk of weak commits to swing their votes over to the other side.

I don't disagree that it is hard to tell if the laugh-o-meter could move enough...if it was broken into quadrants the trailing candidate might need to do well with the late deciders and also have his opponent make a big mistake to swing the weak commits. A dull boy and no mistakes from the other guy and the leader wins. The other two boxes likely offset and the leader still wins.

If anybody suggests Obama get in a tank or go to an aircraft carrier, I'd hold him back. He also needs to bone up on the price of milk, which state Ohio State plays in and who the prime minister of Ackackagstan is, this week. He could also hope Romney picks Admiral Stockdale as his running mate.

Yep, these are all good points, except I believe the nation in question was "Uzbekibekistan."

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

So, nobody was Influenced by the Palin choice?

It would be interesting to see what a true scientific analysis of this reveals. Palin is the critical test of whether picking an actual doorknob as a running mate has any tangible effect in the general.

[mookie1995]

No, I point out fallacies in the argument by extending the argument to other examples. For instance, while he was pointing out that high speed rail (I never mentioned SST) should "earn its way" he apparently forgot that roads and bridges get plenty of money from the government (read: a subsidy). So it makes sense that if you don't want the government providing a subsidy for rail, you would be against providing a subsidy for roads...unless of course, you're a hypocrite....and I'm sure no one on this board is a hypocrite!

Roads aren't subsidized. We pay tolls. For those non-toll roads we pay fed and state gas tax that is to finance highway admin. I also find roads through excise tax and licensing.

Roads are not subsidized. In fact roads subsidize other crap spending

[pirate]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

It would be interesting to see what a true scientific analysis of this reveals. Palin is the critical test of whether picking an actual doorknob as a running mate has any tangible effect in the general.

I wouldn't suggest she, nor any VP nominee, decide the race...but she polarized, mobilized, hypnotized and simonized large chunks of voters.

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012 -- Kull Wahad!!!

Roads aren't subsidized. We pay tolls. For those non-toll roads we pay fed and state gas tax that is to finance highway admin. I also find roads through excise tax and licensing.

Roads are not subsidized. In fact roads subsidize other crap spending

So tax revenue isn't a subsidy? Fascinating theory.