Military History Thread

[Old Pio]

Re: Military History Thread

But such a waste of a whole generation of youth! It was Civil War tactics against modern weapons. Slaughter.

And the sense that it made inevitable an even worse conflict. With civilians the targets of strategic bombing and all the rest. The vengeful allies sought to punish Germany at Versailles, and virtually guaranteed the rise of Hitler or someone like him. A.J.P. Taylor, in his excellent "The Origins of the Second World War," lays it all out. Criticized initially as being "pro-Hitler," Taylor's book is now understood to be seminal.

In WWII the allies crushed German Naziism, Japanese militrism and Italian facism. No such sense of accomplishment followed the end of WWI. The map of Europe was redrawn, some empires were toppled, but not much else. Whereas, despite fifty years of cold war (which the west won), we have only to look to the world community to see the place peaceful prosperous and democratic Germany, Japan and Italy occupy.

[MountieBoyOz]

Re: Military History Thread

And the sense that it made inevitable an even worse conflict. With civilians the targets of strategic bombing and all the rest. The vengeful allies sought to punish Germany at Versailles, and virtually guaranteed the rise of Hitler or someone like him. A.J.P. Taylor, in his excellent "The Origins of the Second World War," lays it all out. Criticized initially as being "pro-Hitler," Taylor's book is now understood to be seminal.

In WWII the allies crushed German Naziism, Japanese militrism and Italian facism. No such sense of accomplishment followed the end of WWI. The map of Europe was redrawn, some empires were toppled, but not much else. Whereas, despite fifty years of cold war (which the west won), we have only to look to the world community to see the place peaceful prosperous and democratic Germany, Japan and Italy occupy.

I thought a majority of French generals wanted to go to Berlin and crush Germany once and for all, but that was voted down. I remember John Manynard Keynes calculated that the reparations would take at least until the 90s to be paid back.

[Old Pio]

Re: Military History Thread

I thought a majority of French generals wanted to go to Berlin and crush Germany once and for all, but that was voted down. I remember John Manynard Keynes calculated that the reparations would take at least until the 90s to be paid back.

That may be true, I hadn't read that. A French version of the Morgenthau Plan. After the armistice they devoted their free time to surrender practice against the blitzkrieg, at which they became the best in the world. IIRC, it was General Gamelin's HQ that had no radio or telephone capability. In "M*A*S*H" there was a running gag where Bobby Troop would say: "G*d D*amn army." That about covers it.

[MountieBoyOz]

Re: Military History Thread

That may be true, I hadn't read that. A French version of the Morganthau Plan. However, they devoted their free time to surrender practice against the blitzkrieg, at which they became the best in the world. IIRC, it was General Gamelin's HQ that had no radio or telephone capability. In "M*A*S*H" there was a running gag where Bobby Troop would say: "G*d D*amn army." That about covers it.

I made a joke at my wife's expense. She loves France and said she wanted to go to Paris. I told her the quickest way was to march in from Berlin. Needless to say, she wasn't thrilled with me.

[Old Pio]

Re: Military History Thread

I made a joke at my wife's expense. She loves France and said she wanted to go to Paris. I told her the quickest way was to march in from Berlin. Needless to say, she wasn't thrilled with me.

There's that line in "Casablanca" where Claude Rains tells Major Strasser he was with the blundering Americans when they "blundered into Berlin" in the last war. Innacurate, of course, but he was making a very valid point. Or as Admiral Yamamoto may have said: "I fear all we have done is to waken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve." Whether he said it or not, it was certainly true.*

I first saw "Tora, Tora, Tora" (an international version) in Tokyo, which my old man, who had been an Army surgeon in the Pacific found, uh, ironic.

[Titleist]

Re: Military History Thread

I thought a majority of French generals wanted to go to Berlin and crush Germany once and for all, but that was voted down. I remember John Manynard Keynes calculated that the reparations would take at least until the 90s to be paid back.

Well Keynes was off at least by a few years.

My favorite Clemenceau story is that he wanted be buried facing Germany so he could always keep an eye on them.

[Old Pio]

Re: Military History Thread

Well Keynes was off at least by a few years.

My favorite Clemenceau story is that he wanted be buried facing Germany so he could always keep an eye on them.

Buried face down, no doubt, knowing what was coming sooner or later.

[FreshFish]

Re: Military History Thread

In WWII the allies crushed German Naziism, Japanese militrism and Italian facism. No such sense of accomplishment followed the end of WWI. The map of Europe was redrawn, some empires were toppled, but not much else. Whereas, despite fifty years of cold war (which the west won), we have only to look to the world community to see the place peaceful prosperous and democratic Germany, Japan and Italy occupy.

For that I think we have to give great credit to George Marshall and Harry Truman. They saw a vacuum and knew that something would fill it quickly, and so they had the US step forward with generosity and forgiveness ("It was never you, people, with whom we were at war, it was merely your feckless leaders. Now that they are gone, we can be friends."). Tremendous foresight.

[MadTownSioux]

Re: Military History Thread

George C. Scott, as General George S. Patton Jr.:

The Carthaginians defending the city were attacked by three Roman legions. The Carthaginians were proud and brave but they couldn't hold. They were massacred. Arab women stripped them of their tunics and their swords and lances. The soldiers lay naked in the sun. Two thousand years ago. I was here.

[joecct]

George C. Scott, as General George S. Patton Jr.:

"Carthago delenda est"

[MadTownSioux]

Re: Military History Thread

"Carthago delenda est"

And it was.

[Old Pio]

Re: Military History Thread

For that I think we have to give great credit to George Marshall and Harry Truman. They saw a vacuum and knew that something would fill it quickly, and so they had the US step forward with generosity and forgiveness ("It was never you, people, with whom we were at war, it was merely your feckless leaders. Now that they are gone, we can be friends."). Tremendous foresight.

Yes, certainly. Give some credit also to Douglas MacArthur, whose enlightened administration of Japan paved the way for the peaceful, democratic nation we know today.

[joecct]

Re: Military History Thread

Yes, certainly. Give some credit also to Douglas MacArthur, whose enlightened administration of Japan paved the way for the peaceful, democratic nation we know today.

It fit Gen. MacArthur's personality to a T. He was the Shogun.

[Timothy A]

Re: Military History Thread

Watch an excellent British produced documentary called The First World War. I didn't realize how new some of the techniques and weapons that were used in that war. I also gained a lot of respect for Marshal Foch of France. He was only 65 days off of his prediction of a Second World War.

That is an excellent, excellent series. There is this haunting image in my head of this dressed up soldier standing in front of this normally dressed woman who was executed, hanging there like she was dragged out of her house and strangled. That picture was in one of the early episodes about all the genocide type things that happened early in the war in he Balkans. It just crushes me that humans treat other humans as if they are from another planet and kill them because of their heritage. It's been a flaw in mankind since sin entered the world. The "smarter" we get as no effect on this flaw. I just don't know why we all can't get along....(I do know why, but that's for another thread.)

[Old Pio]

Re: Military History Thread

It fit Gen. MacArthur's personality to a T. He was the Shogun.

William Manchester titled his biography of MacArthur "American Caesar." Also on the nose.