Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

In State Tuition for Illegals? How does this make sense?

I've seen some proposals that do make sense. Generally, it means that the children of illegal immigrants pay the same tuition rate to go to a state school that any other state resident would pay, and they are not threatened with deportation if they enroll. For states that are trying to upgrade the quality of their labor force, it may make good economic sense, and it also makes sense to turn people into employable taxpayers instead of recipient of public services. Often, the people promoting that legislation also hope to turn the beneficiaries into another special-interest voting bloc.

[pirate]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Tufts certainly has particular programs (Medicine) that qualify as "elite." Once upon a time at least BC's Philosophy department was very strong.

I have a problem with calling any particular university "elite." It all comes down to what you study. When I was an undergrad (insert dinosaur joke here) there were a hundred schools with better math programs than Cornell or better hard science programs than Harvard. And of course once you get to graduate school the university label becomes literally meaningless -- it's just a matter of who you study with.

i agree, my intention was more to point out that the word elite, which I disagree with as a descriptor, was now starting to be used against people who didn't go to Harvard or Yale.

We classify anybody making more than $250k a year as 'the rich', then there is the tag on anybody going to a top university as 'elite'. The word pandering gets tossed around a lot on here, I think the use of these terms(rich and elite) is intentional. What does it mean? To me it is another way to divide, another way to demean the achievements of those who have worked hard, another way to make those outcomes seem 'bad' or their perspective to be invalid. It plays to the middle of the pack.

Used to be the term snob got thrown around, and it was more of a personality trait, somebody acted like a snob. Now, just by going to the top schools in the country, which are 'elite', you by extension must be elitist. That isn't how those people act per se, that is just a tag put on entire groups of people based on performance.


So,

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

i agree, my intention was more to point out that the word elite, which I disagree with as a descriptor, was now starting to be used against people who didn't go to Harvard or Yale.

We classify anybody making more than $250k a year as 'the rich', then there is the tag on anybody going to a top university as 'elite'. The word pandering gets tossed around a lot on here, I think the use of these terms(rich and elite) is intentional. What does it mean? To me it is another way to divide, another way to demean the achievements of those who have worked hard, another way to make those outcomes seem 'bad' or their perspective to be invalid. It plays to the middle of the pack.

Used to be the term snob got thrown around, and it was more of a personality trait, somebody acted like a snob. Now, just by going to the top schools in the country, which are 'elite', you by extension must be elitist. That isn't how those people act per se, that is just a tag put on entire groups of people based on performance.

Nicely put....though to me it is not even "putting a tag on people based on performance" but more "labelling people because of perceived traits which they may or may not actually have."

This divisiveness is really unhealthy: "let's pick out a few people here, too small to be anything other than symbolic, and demonize them as a way to rally others behind us." I saw an economic analysis that the so-called "Buffett rule" really would only make a significant difference in taxation to about 400 people. Clearly you cannot address our deficit problem that way.

[pirate]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Nicely put....though to me it is not even "putting a tag on people based on performance" but more "labelling people because of perceived traits which they may or may not actually have."

This divisiveness is really unhealthy: "let's pick out a few people here, too small to be anything other than symbolic, and demonize them as a way to rally others behind us." I saw an economic analysis that the so-called "Buffett rule" really would only make a significant difference in taxation to about 400 people. Clearly you cannot address our deficit problem that way.

The path is leading to excuses for anyone who doesn't excel and sour grapes towards anybody that does. Since nobody can suceed unless they were born into a billionaire family, it is really easy to set expectations for the rest of america.

Meanwhile, the offspring of billionaires are rarely successful themselves...if you provide everything for them, set no expectations and cover up their failings with excuses and money it usually leads to failure. The good thing is that only happens to the children of billionaires, anybody else thrives in that type of environment.

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Meanwhile, the offspring of billionaires are rarely successful themselves...if you provide everything for them, set no expectations and cover up their failings with excuses and money it usually leads to failure. The good thing is that only happens to the children of billionaires, anybody else thrives in that type of environment.

Not sure how to present data on this idea one way or the other....your "if" is hugely important. Many founding billionaires DO set high expectations, and it shows.

The Rockefellers, for example, seemed to produce generation after generation of successful people, at least based on a cursory glance....same with the Ford family, the Pritzkers, the Dillons....again, not much direct personal knowledge, just a few anecdotal observations (though I had to laugh on a visit to the Dillon family office, there was a framed political cartoon in the reception area about the battle to expand the federal debt ceiling....from the Johnson administration, when a Dillon was Secretary of the Treasury!).

Many of the "billionaire" families set up charitable foundations that receive the bulk of the family fortune, so that the children have enough in trust only to cover basic lifestyle needs. If they want more than that, they have to go out and earn it. Many times, the successor generations work in the foundation itself, which in theory at least is a great way to teach them responsibility and stewardship and how to give back in a responsible way.


I think a few prominent celebutards have skewed popular perception. I would not generalize from them. What matters most is the foresight exercised by the founding billionaire in how they set up their dispository documents.

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

In State Tuition for Illegals? How does this make sense?

Yah. So an illegal gets to pay in state tuition, but a kid from the next state over pays out of state tuition. Such things are all too common in this nation anymore.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

In State Tuition for Illegals? How does this make sense?

Rick Perry did it in Texas. I think it's utter and complete BS myself.

[walrus]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

they may live in state......

People here illegally should get 0 benefits from their illegal activity.

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

iThe word pandering gets tossed around a lot on here, I think the use of these terms(rich and elite) is intentional. What does it mean? To me it is another way to divide, another way to demean the achievements of those who have worked hard, another way to make those outcomes seem 'bad' or their perspective to be invalid. It plays to the middle of the pack.

The left tends to demonize the rich and the right tends to demonize the educated. Each party does the Working Class Hero drag act to harvest votes. Partly it appeals to unhealthy envy and partly to the healthy desire to explode conceits. I doubt it's ever been any different.

I’ll mountebank their loves,
Cog their hearts from them, and come home beloved
Of all the trades in Rome. -- Coriolanus, act 3, scene 2

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Yah. So an illegal gets to pay in state tuition, but a kid from the next state over pays out of state tuition. Such things are all too common in this nation anymore.

So you consider a person born in the United States an illegal alien? In your view, how many generations does a family have to live here to be considered an American citizen?

And while we're on the subject, perhaps you can tell us how many generations your family has been in this country.

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

"Hey, should we spell-check the headline of the story before we publish it?" "Nah, don't bother."

Speaking of using spell check...

Romney also was embarrassed by an iPhone app that his campaign released Tuesday night. The app allows users to snap photos of themselves, and then overlay designs that include the phrase “I’m With Mitt.” Unfortunately, one of the designs, which was supposed to hail “A Better America,” was misspelled to instead proclaim “A Better Amercia.”

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

People here illegally should get 0 benefits from their illegal activity.

I'm not disagreeing....merely observing that the in-state tuition bills generally are proposed to apply to the children of the illegals, not the illegals themselves.

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

So you consider a person born in the United States an illegal alien? In your view, how many generations does a family have to live here to be considered an American citizen?

And while we're on the subject, perhaps you can tell us how many generations your family has been in this country.

If a person was born here they aren't illegal. Whoosh!

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

If a person was born here they aren't illegal. Whoosh!

So why shouldn't they pay in-state tuition?

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

So why shouldn't they pay in-state tuition?

It's my understanding that this isn't "the point" of the legislation; it's more so that they can enroll in college without their family being threatened with deportation....though not every state's version of the proposed bill is the same.