Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Don't you Obama supporters say that all the time about Obama's detractors?

But in that case of course it's true, as Obama detractors by definition are dumb.

[geezer]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

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OK, here. We agree that taxes need to be higher than they are now to pay for all the bailouts, stimuli, foreign adventures, etc. that have run up the debt. My issue is that it's dishonest to call changing the tax rate from 15% to 30%, a "reduction" or "keeping it where it 'should have been'", or anything else except "an increase". You said, if a sale ends at WalMart so the price goes from $2 to $4, where it was previously, it's not an increase in price. I said, if it goes from $2 to $4 of COURSE it's an increase, it's going up. Same as if previous tax rate reductions are reversed. Taxes would increase.

How is this difficult?

Calling an increase something other than an increase won't make it easier for the people to accept. It will just make you dishonest.

[pirate]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

OK, here. We agree that taxes need to be higher than they are now to pay for all the bailouts, stimuli, foreign adventures, etc. that have run up the debt. My issue is that it's dishonest to call changing the tax rate from 15% to 30%, a "reduction" or "keeping it where it 'should have been'", or anything else except "an increase". You said, if a sale ends at WalMart so the price goes from $2 to $4, where it was previously, it's not an increase in price. I said, if it goes from $2 to $4 of COURSE it's an increase, it's going up. Same as if previous tax rate reductions are reversed. Taxes would increase.

How is this difficult?

Calling an increase something other than an increase won't make it easier for the people to accept. It will just make you dishonest.

You forget...all changes in tax rates should be indexed to whatever rate suits people's political position. Give them a graph and a listing of which party was in power and they'll come up with their base rate. All other arguments flow from there.

If you need help on the prevailing theme on here: If there was ever a rate in the past higher than now then clearly the current rate is too low.

[St. Clown]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

So, do you really believe that ANYONE is so dumb that they criticize ONLY because of the political party that the person who made the comment belongs to? If so, grow up.

Take some time to look at criticism of Pres. Bush's execution of the "war on terror", and look at Pres. Obama's. During the Bush years, you had Dems denouncing his tactics and denouncing the man meanwhile the Repubs were holding up his actions as The Way. Now that Pres. Obama is in office, he's excoriated by Repubs and held by Dems as the shining light of truth. What policies have changed between the two administrations in terms of executing this war? Why have the detractors and supporters switched roles?

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

OK, here. We agree that taxes need to be higher than they are now to pay for all the bailouts, stimuli, foreign adventures, etc. that have run up the debt. My issue is that it's dishonest to call changing the tax rate from 15% to 30%, a "reduction" or "keeping it where it 'should have been'", or anything else except "an increase". You said, if a sale ends at WalMart so the price goes from $2 to $4, where it was previously, it's not an increase in price. I said, if it goes from $2 to $4 of COURSE it's an increase, it's going up. Same as if previous tax rate reductions are reversed. Taxes would increase.

How is this difficult?

Calling an increase something other than an increase won't make it easier for the people to accept. It will just make you dishonest.

This whole thing is a big bunch of political posturing. It's been in place long enough now that your point is well taken that people will see it as an increase, because they haven't paid the higher rate now for many years. On the other hand, because they were never made permanent (as much as anything can be permanent with the feds), technically if/when they go away, the rates will go back to the old permanent rates. All a matter of how folks want to spin it.

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Take some time to look at criticism of Pres. Bush's execution of the "war on terror", and look at Pres. Obama's. During the Bush years, you had Dems denouncing his tactics and denouncing the man meanwhile the Repubs were holding up his actions as The Way. Now that Pres. Obama is in office, he's excoriated by Repubs and held by Dems as the shining light of truth. What policies have changed between the two administrations in terms of executing this war? Why have the detractors and supporters switched roles?

Excellent example.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Calling an increase something other than an increase won't make it easier for the people to accept. It will just make you dishonest.

It's not an increase. And anyone with a 3rd grade education can understand it. So, about 25% of the US population.

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Take some time to look at criticism of Pres. Bush's execution of the "war on terror", and look at Pres. Obama's. During the Bush years, you had Dems denouncing his tactics and denouncing the man meanwhile the Repubs were holding up his actions as The Way. Now that Pres. Obama is in office, he's excoriated by Repubs and held by Dems as the shining light of truth. What policies have changed between the two administrations in terms of executing this war? Why have the detractors and supporters switched roles?

thank you! you said in an elegant tactful way the same message i was trying to convey in my stumbling, awkward manner.

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

A solid third of the electorate want another option.

I'd love to know what the comparable numbers were in other elections. I wouldn't be surprised if it always hovers around a third.

[Rover]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Well this is certainly an uplifting story:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/...+-+Politics%29

You know, I'm not sure blatantly racist campaign ads have the same punch that they used to in prior decades. I also love how Ricketts has now folded like a cheap suit, saying this ad was just one that was brought to him for his consideration.

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

It's not an increase. And anyone with a 3rd grade education can understand it.

something goes up from where it is now and yet it is not an "increase," it is merely the "retraction of a reduction." semantics and mind games and spin.

more is greater than less. that's math. you can spin how you describe the operators, but "greater than" is always "greater than" no matter how you spin it.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

something goes up from where it is now and yet it is not an "increase," it is merely the "retraction of a reduction." semantics and mind games and spin.

more is greater than less. that's math. you can spin how you describe the operators, but "greater than" is always "greater than" no matter how you spin it.

So, when soap goes on sale at Target this week and then you buy it next week at regular price you think Target increased the price of soap?

Yeah, that's some fine logic there. No wonder we're getting our asses kicked globally.

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

So, when soap goes on sale at Target this week and then you buy it next week at regular price you think Target increased the price of soap?.

They will have increased the price from what you pay for it this week to what you pay for it next week. We are discussing "relative to" not "absolute."


You are taking a two-step operation and then conflating the two steps into one and then pretending that the two steps never happened in between. That is the source of the apparent confusion.

Soap starts out at $1 per bar last week.

It is reduced to $0.90 per bar this week.

It is then increased from $0.90 per bar this week back up to the $1 per bar that it was last week.

If you start with two weeks ago, the price is the same now as it was then....it was reduced by 10% and then increased by 11% leaving it where it started.


You are saying that since it was $1 last week and $1 next week then no changes occurred in between.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

They will have increased the price from what you pay for it this week to what you pay for it next week. We are discussing "relative to" not "absolute."


You are taking a two-step operation and then conflating the two steps into one and then pretending that the two steps never happened in between. That is the source of the apparent confusion.

Soap starts out at $1 per bar last week.

It is reduced to $0.90 per bar this week.

It is then increased from $0.90 per bar this week back up to the $1 per bar that it was last week.

If you start with two weeks ago, the price is the same now as it was then....it was reduced by 10% and then increased by 11% leaving it where it started.


You are saying that since it was $1 last week and $1 next week then no changes occurred in between.

No.

The sale was for one week only. The tax cuts were passed with an end date. Same same. I guess you and Grover do not understand the concept of temporary and permanent. I do.

The price was never raised. It was temporarily discounted. Two different things. You're the one who can't differentiate. Not me.

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

This is really a dumb back and forth. You are both right in a way, but so is the other person. Anyone with an elementary education can see what both sides are saying.