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  • Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

    Originally posted by walrus View Post
    In State Tuition for Illegals? How does this make sense?
    I've seen some proposals that do make sense. Generally, it means that the children of illegal immigrants pay the same tuition rate to go to a state school that any other state resident would pay, and they are not threatened with deportation if they enroll. For states that are trying to upgrade the quality of their labor force, it may make good economic sense, and it also makes sense to turn people into employable taxpayers instead of recipient of public services. Often, the people promoting that legislation also hope to turn the beneficiaries into another special-interest voting bloc.
    Last edited by FreshFish; 05-31-2012, 11:24 AM.
    "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

    "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

    "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

    "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

    Comment


    • Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

      Originally posted by Kepler View Post
      Tufts certainly has particular programs (Medicine) that qualify as "elite." Once upon a time at least BC's Philosophy department was very strong.

      I have a problem with calling any particular university "elite." It all comes down to what you study. When I was an undergrad (insert dinosaur joke here) there were a hundred schools with better math programs than Cornell or better hard science programs than Harvard. And of course once you get to graduate school the university label becomes literally meaningless -- it's just a matter of who you study with.
      i agree, my intention was more to point out that the word elite, which I disagree with as a descriptor, was now starting to be used against people who didn't go to Harvard or Yale.

      We classify anybody making more than $250k a year as 'the rich', then there is the tag on anybody going to a top university as 'elite'. The word pandering gets tossed around a lot on here, I think the use of these terms(rich and elite) is intentional. What does it mean? To me it is another way to divide, another way to demean the achievements of those who have worked hard, another way to make those outcomes seem 'bad' or their perspective to be invalid. It plays to the middle of the pack.

      Used to be the term snob got thrown around, and it was more of a personality trait, somebody acted like a snob. Now, just by going to the top schools in the country, which are 'elite', you by extension must be elitist. That isn't how those people act per se, that is just a tag put on entire groups of people based on performance.


      So,
      I believe in life, and I believe in love, but the world in which I live in keeps trying to prove me wrong.

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      • Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

        Originally posted by pirate View Post
        i agree, my intention was more to point out that the word elite, which I disagree with as a descriptor, was now starting to be used against people who didn't go to Harvard or Yale.

        We classify anybody making more than $250k a year as 'the rich', then there is the tag on anybody going to a top university as 'elite'. The word pandering gets tossed around a lot on here, I think the use of these terms(rich and elite) is intentional. What does it mean? To me it is another way to divide, another way to demean the achievements of those who have worked hard, another way to make those outcomes seem 'bad' or their perspective to be invalid. It plays to the middle of the pack.

        Used to be the term snob got thrown around, and it was more of a personality trait, somebody acted like a snob. Now, just by going to the top schools in the country, which are 'elite', you by extension must be elitist. That isn't how those people act per se, that is just a tag put on entire groups of people based on performance.
        Nicely put....though to me it is not even "putting a tag on people based on performance" but more "labelling people because of perceived traits which they may or may not actually have."

        This divisiveness is really unhealthy: "let's pick out a few people here, too small to be anything other than symbolic, and demonize them as a way to rally others behind us." I saw an economic analysis that the so-called "Buffett rule" really would only make a significant difference in taxation to about 400 people. Clearly you cannot address our deficit problem that way.
        "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

        "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

        "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

        "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

        Comment


        • Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

          Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
          Nicely put....though to me it is not even "putting a tag on people based on performance" but more "labelling people because of perceived traits which they may or may not actually have."

          This divisiveness is really unhealthy: "let's pick out a few people here, too small to be anything other than symbolic, and demonize them as a way to rally others behind us." I saw an economic analysis that the so-called "Buffett rule" really would only make a significant difference in taxation to about 400 people. Clearly you cannot address our deficit problem that way.
          The path is leading to excuses for anyone who doesn't excel and sour grapes towards anybody that does. Since nobody can suceed unless they were born into a billionaire family, it is really easy to set expectations for the rest of america.

          Meanwhile, the offspring of billionaires are rarely successful themselves...if you provide everything for them, set no expectations and cover up their failings with excuses and money it usually leads to failure. The good thing is that only happens to the children of billionaires, anybody else thrives in that type of environment.
          I believe in life, and I believe in love, but the world in which I live in keeps trying to prove me wrong.

          Comment


          • Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

            Originally posted by pirate View Post
            Meanwhile, the offspring of billionaires are rarely successful themselves...if you provide everything for them, set no expectations and cover up their failings with excuses and money it usually leads to failure. The good thing is that only happens to the children of billionaires, anybody else thrives in that type of environment.
            Not sure how to present data on this idea one way or the other....your "if" is hugely important. Many founding billionaires DO set high expectations, and it shows.

            The Rockefellers, for example, seemed to produce generation after generation of successful people, at least based on a cursory glance....same with the Ford family, the Pritzkers, the Dillons....again, not much direct personal knowledge, just a few anecdotal observations (though I had to laugh on a visit to the Dillon family office, there was a framed political cartoon in the reception area about the battle to expand the federal debt ceiling....from the Johnson administration, when a Dillon was Secretary of the Treasury!).

            Many of the "billionaire" families set up charitable foundations that receive the bulk of the family fortune, so that the children have enough in trust only to cover basic lifestyle needs. If they want more than that, they have to go out and earn it. Many times, the successor generations work in the foundation itself, which in theory at least is a great way to teach them responsibility and stewardship and how to give back in a responsible way.


            I think a few prominent celebutards have skewed popular perception. I would not generalize from them. What matters most is the foresight exercised by the founding billionaire in how they set up their dispository documents.
            "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

            "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

            "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

            "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

            Comment


            • Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

              Originally posted by walrus View Post
              In State Tuition for Illegals? How does this make sense?
              Yah. So an illegal gets to pay in state tuition, but a kid from the next state over pays out of state tuition. Such things are all too common in this nation anymore.
              Originally posted by Priceless
              Good to see you're so reasonable.
              Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
              Very well, said.
              Originally posted by Rover
              A fair assessment Bob.

              Comment


              • Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

                Originally posted by walrus View Post
                In State Tuition for Illegals? How does this make sense?
                Rick Perry did it in Texas. I think it's utter and complete BS myself.
                **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

                Comment


                • Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

                  Originally posted by mookie1995 View Post
                  they may live in state......
                  People here illegally should get 0 benefits from their illegal activity.
                  I swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell.

                  Maine Hockey Love it or Leave it

                  Comment


                  • Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

                    Originally posted by pirate View Post
                    iThe word pandering gets tossed around a lot on here, I think the use of these terms(rich and elite) is intentional. What does it mean? To me it is another way to divide, another way to demean the achievements of those who have worked hard, another way to make those outcomes seem 'bad' or their perspective to be invalid. It plays to the middle of the pack.
                    The left tends to demonize the rich and the right tends to demonize the educated. Each party does the Working Class Hero drag act to harvest votes. Partly it appeals to unhealthy envy and partly to the healthy desire to explode conceits. I doubt it's ever been any different.

                    I’ll mountebank their loves,
                    Cog their hearts from them, and come home beloved
                    Of all the trades in Rome. -- Coriolanus, act 3, scene 2
                    Cornell University
                    National Champion 1967, 1970
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                    • Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

                      Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
                      Yah. So an illegal gets to pay in state tuition, but a kid from the next state over pays out of state tuition. Such things are all too common in this nation anymore.
                      So you consider a person born in the United States an illegal alien? In your view, how many generations does a family have to live here to be considered an American citizen?

                      And while we're on the subject, perhaps you can tell us how many generations your family has been in this country.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

                        Originally posted by French Rage View Post
                        "Hey, should we spell-check the headline of the story before we publish it?" "Nah, don't bother."
                        Speaking of using spell check...

                        Romney also was embarrassed by an iPhone app that his campaign released Tuesday night. The app allows users to snap photos of themselves, and then overlay designs that include the phrase “I’m With Mitt.” Unfortunately, one of the designs, which was supposed to hail “A Better America,” was misspelled to instead proclaim “A Better Amercia.”

                        Comment


                        • Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

                          Originally posted by walrus View Post
                          People here illegally should get 0 benefits from their illegal activity.
                          I'm not disagreeing....merely observing that the in-state tuition bills generally are proposed to apply to the children of the illegals, not the illegals themselves.
                          "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                          "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                          "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                          "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                          Comment


                          • Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

                            Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                            So you consider a person born in the United States an illegal alien? In your view, how many generations does a family have to live here to be considered an American citizen?

                            And while we're on the subject, perhaps you can tell us how many generations your family has been in this country.
                            If a person was born here they aren't illegal. Whoosh!
                            Originally posted by Priceless
                            Good to see you're so reasonable.
                            Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                            Very well, said.
                            Originally posted by Rover
                            A fair assessment Bob.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

                              Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
                              If a person was born here they aren't illegal. Whoosh!
                              So why shouldn't they pay in-state tuition?

                              Comment


                              • Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

                                Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                                So why shouldn't they pay in-state tuition?
                                It's my understanding that this isn't "the point" of the legislation; it's more so that they can enroll in college without their family being threatened with deportation....though not every state's version of the proposed bill is the same.
                                "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                                "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                                "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                                "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                                Comment

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