Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...uccess/250564/

Maybe we're going about it wrong?

There's really no question that, at least at the primary and secondary levels, we're getting our collective arse kicked by a country the size of Wisconsin.

Some of it is culture, and won't necessarily translate to the states. But maybe some things would travel. More local responsibility, much higher employment standards (Master's degree being a minimum qualification) with correspondingly higher pay, and more equitable funding (geographically)?

Might be worth a shot. The only thing we're worse at than primary and secondary education is reforming primary and secondary education. Put the American exceptionalism book on the shelf for a moment and look at places that actually don't fail at it.

Tenure for poor teachers is a legitimate concern, but the usual political response (contempt for teachers) falls squarely into the "not part of the solution, so part of the problem" category.

Maybe there are some lessons to be learned. But direct comparisons between a tiny country, where all the kids share the same ethnicity and history, is of limited utility here. And that nonsense about no private education. We should pass laws restricting the opportunities for people who have succeeded in the forlorn hope that will help improve the opportunities for those who haven't? That dog won't hunt. And what in the world does "the American Exceptionalism book" have to do with this? Other than giving you a chance to take a gratuitous shot.

The contempt is not for "teachers", it is for incompetent teachers who, for instance, tell a high school kid he could be arrested for disagreeing with her. Yeah, I've got contempt for that worthless b*tch. Put her to work in the cafeteria. "Teachers" like her should never be hired and should be fired immediately.

[LynahFan]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Some of it is culture, and won't necessarily translate to the states. But maybe some things would travel. More local responsibility, much higher employment standards (Master's degree being a minimum qualification) with correspondingly higher pay, and more equitable funding (geographically)?

So long as it is a *useful* master's degree. I had a family friend growing up who had an MBA, had taken time off from her career to raise her kids, and was considering teaching high school economics as a 2nd career. Turns out that she couldn't be hired as an economics teacher - she needed to have a master's degree specifically in economics or in education. I would much prefer someone with an MBA (and actual business experience) teach my kids economics than someone with a master's in education. Or for that matter a master's in math, physics, or even engineering - basically any technical field instead of education.

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

So long as it is a *useful* master's degree. I had a family friend growing up who had an MBA, had taken time off from her career to raise her kids, and was considering teaching high school economics as a 2nd career. Turns out that she couldn't be hired as an economics teacher - she needed to have a master's degree specifically in economics or in education. I would much prefer someone with an MBA (and actual business experience) teach my kids economics than someone with a master's in education. Or for that matter a master's in math, physics, or even engineering - basically any technical field instead of education.

Totally agree. Under the standards that apply these days, Bruce Catton couldn't teach American history because he ain't got no ejucation courses. I took a night business law course at IIT, and the instructor was a lawyer, just back from Miami, with a very deep tan, solid gold cuff links and a saville row suit. Seemed like he met all the requirements.

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

So long as it is a *useful* master's degree.

Well, sure. But there's not going to be a single standard. An MBA won't prepare you to teach a 3rd-grader a foreign language.

It boils down to more resources, more responsibility.

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

We should pass laws restricting the opportunities for people who have succeeded in the forlorn hope that will help improve the opportunities for those who haven't? That dog won't hunt. And what in the world does "the American Exceptionalism book" have to do with this? Other than giving you a chance to take a gratuitous shot.

That dog will hunt all day - on am radio stations.

If you have small classes and dedicated professionals, students can still get individual attention. Not sure where you're getting limited opportunities.

The exceptionalism thing was absolutely a dig. Cut me some slack. We're 12 months into the presidential election now, and the derp . . . it burns . . .

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

That dog will hunt all day - on am radio stations.

If you have small classes and dedicated professionals, students can still get individual attention. Not sure where you're getting limited opportunities.

The exceptionalism thing was absolutely a dig. Cut me some slack. We're 12 months into the presidential election now, and the derp . . . it burns . . .

Derp, schmerp. What does the election cycle have to do with your apparant inability to discuss an important subject without a shot at your own country? Does that make you "sophisticated," or something?

Many countries that have average class sizes much larger than ours are kicking our butts. The proof that smaller class size across the board is the magic answer is not clear. However, the teachers unions would surely love a 2:1 ratio.

Aside from being a tiny pinpr*ck of a country (with a population about the same as Cook County), what percentage of their population is Asian? Latino? Black (with the history of our black population)? This is the demographic/cultural elephant in the living room. And ignoring it won't make it go away.

There may be some things we can learn from Finland, I don't doubt it a bit. Higher standards for teachers is one (although we don't need Finland to tell us that) and rewarding better teachers while punishing (read: firing) bad ones also does not require consultation. Still, we should be willing to learn from excellence wherever we find it.

[leswp1]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

So long as it is a *useful* master's degree. I had a family friend growing up who had an MBA, had taken time off from her career to raise her kids, and was considering teaching high school economics as a 2nd career. Turns out that she couldn't be hired as an economics teacher - she needed to have a master's degree specifically in economics or in education. I would much prefer someone with an MBA (and actual business experience) teach my kids economics than someone with a master's in education. Or for that matter a master's in math, physics, or even engineering - basically any technical field instead of education.

I would rather have a teaching degree. Can't count all the people I have met who are absolutely brilliant in their field and can't communicate worth squat to adults never mind children. I wouldn't mind a Masters in whatever as long as they had some legit education in child development, learning styles, and most important of all- classroom management.

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Can't count all the people I have met who are absolutely brilliant in their field and can't communicate worth squat to adults never mind children.

And thank God for it, it's the market inefficiency that has assured my employment for 30 years.

Second rate intellects with first rate teaching skills FTW!

[BassAle]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

So long as it is a *useful* master's degree. I had a family friend growing up who had an MBA, had taken time off from her career to raise her kids, and was considering teaching high school economics as a 2nd career. Turns out that she couldn't be hired as an economics teacher - she needed to have a master's degree specifically in economics or in education. I would much prefer someone with an MBA (and actual business experience) teach my kids economics than someone with a master's in education. Or for that matter a master's in math, physics, or even engineering - basically any technical field instead of education.

In Maine they try to get people with undergraduate degrees in science and math to take a 1-year master's degree program to become high school math and science teachers. I think that is a good way to do it, 4-5 years worth of college level science followed by a year in education + student teaching. And since there is a shortage of math and science teachers, they can get some of their student loans forgiven. I would think it would reasonably attractive for someone with an undergraduate degree in biology when they find out how little research assistants make (not a high paying career choice either) especially if they don't have the grades for medical school and realize and how competitive it is for professorships/research scientists in the field.

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

*****http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5096/5479912701_09ef10d162.jpg******

40+ kids, 1 nun and 5 erasers. This was typical of my elementary school, though I had lay teachers about 50% of the time, too. However, the same standards applied and worked.

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

*****http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5096/5479912701_09ef10d162.jpg******

40+ kids, 1 nun and 5 erasers. This was typical of my elementary school, though I had lay teachers about 50% of the time, too. However, the same standards applied and worked.

That one girl is possessed.

Edit: Argh. Attachment doesn't work.

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Derp, schmerp. What does the election cycle have to do with your apparant inability to discuss an important subject without a shot at your own country? Does that make you "sophisticated," or something?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. I was pretty obviously taking a shot at the derpitude of the GOP primary constituency, especially its slavish devotion to "bestest country evar" slogans. Aside: the country is not exceptional because Jebus wrote the constitution. Exceptionalism isn't the starting point. It's a product. Something to be achieved - and re-achieved.

Many countries that have average class sizes much larger than ours are kicking our butts. The proof that smaller class size across the board is the magic answer is not clear. However, the teachers unions would surely love a 2:1 ratio.

They also have annual instructional times that are much, much greater than ours, never mind Finland's. I'll leave it to you to determine whether the efficiency gain is real or illusory.

Aside from being a tiny pinpr*ck of a country (with a population about the same as Cook County), what percentage of their population is Asian? Latino? Black (with the history of our black population)? This is the demographic/cultural elephant in the living room. And ignoring it won't make it go away.

I'd say it's more a red herring. And carping on about it won't make it real. There are states that have roughly equal (or even less) demographic/cultural diversity than Finland. Yet they're not star performers. Heck, I'd wager a guess that they perform no better (and possibly worse) than the ethnically contaminated states.

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

A great essay on the moral and intellectual cesspool the GOP and its enablers have become by someone who knows, and a reminder for the thousandth time that the yammering yahoos calling themselves "conservatives" on the American right and not in any way conservative.

[LynahFan]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

A great essay on the moral and intellectual cesspool the GOP and its enablers have become by someone who knows, and a reminder for the thousandth time that the yammering yahoos calling themselves "conservatives" on the American right and not in any way conservative.

"Pity the poor Onion; there’s nothing left to satirize."

So true. So sad.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

California term limits are on the ballot. Here are some thoughts from the original host of Wheel of Fortune: