Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

So your anecdote proves how it always works?

My company has had excellent experience outsourcing menial analysis tasks to India (computational fluids, structural finite element analysis, etc). There's no doubt in my mind that utilizing those 3-4 guys in India has protected 10-15 jobs in the US, so the benefit to the US does not depend on their buying US products.

I have always been a social 'liberal' and a big free trader. I have believed in efficiency of resources and specialization. Companies better compete, money flows to those best at doing the job and the customer benefits. And we are all customers. In the end, each country does its thing, poor countries then become spenders, and everyone comes out ahead. Which has been largely true.

Yet for the first time ever, its blatantly obvious there's a problem here. The US is losing some jobs and gaining others as comparative advantage would say. And my guess is that the value of those jobs is roughly equivalent. But the problem is the number of jobs is not. So we may lose 1000 manufacturing jobs and gain 40 multimillionaire innovation tycoon jobs...with money lost and gained being about the same. Which is also what comparative advantage would say as the US is world beater in top end out of the box innovation. The problem is we have a net loss of 960 jobs.

The outcome? The stock markets fine. Many businesses do well. But unemployment doesn't go away. Which is what's happening. I don't think isolationism is the answer. But rather hypercompetitiveness. Go after improving the US' labors ability to compete...and US business' opportunity to go on the offense overseas.

But it this trend of losing low end jobs and gaining just a few high end ones that will continue. And as it does, wealth disparity will increase and the country will become unhealthy. And with the current environment of low taxes and cut all government investment in making the US competitive (such as education) its a long term recipe for disaster.

[LynahFan]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

However, you did miss the point which was tech support people in India are doing a service that Americans wouldn't perform themselves (Fishy's assertion).

The larger picture is that the foreigners will do a service that Americans won't perform themselves for the same salary. Find me an engineer in the US who will perform finite element analysis 40 hours per week, 50 weeks per year for $20k salary and no benefits and then you will have a point. It's not a black-and-white question of whether Americans will or won't perform the service - if tech support paid $200k per year, Americans would be falling all over themselves to perform that service.

[bronconick]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

That's great. Then Romney can use his Bain history to get himself elected Prime Minister of India, since he's done so much to improve their economy.

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

I have always been a social 'liberal' and a big free trader. I have believed in efficiency of resources and specialization. Companies better compete, money flows to those best at doing the job and the customer benefits. And we are all customers. In the end, each country does its thing, poor countries then become spenders, and everyone comes out ahead. Which has been largely true.

Yet for the first time ever, its blatantly obvious there's a problem here. The US is losing some jobs and gaining others as comparative advantage would say. And my guess is that the value of those jobs is roughly equivalent. But the problem is the number of jobs is not. So we may lose 1000 manufacturing jobs and gain 40 multimillionaire innovation tycoon jobs...with money lost and gained being about the same. Which is also what comparative advantage would say as the US is world beater in top end out of the box innovation. The problem is we have a net loss of 960 jobs.

The outcome? The stock markets fine. Many businesses do well. But unemployment doesn't go away. Which is what's happening. I don't think isolationism is the answer. But rather hypercompetitiveness. Go after improving the US' labors ability to compete...and US business' opportunity to go on the offense overseas.

But it this trend of losing low end jobs and gaining just a few high end ones that will continue. And as it does, wealth disparity will increase and the country will become unhealthy. And with the current environment of low taxes and cut all government investment in making the US competitive (such as education) its a long term recipe for disaster.

Some of the proposed "solutions" will solve nothing and actually make the problem worse:

Facebook co-founder Eduardo Saverin's recent decision to give up his U.S. citizenship in favor of long-term residence in Singapore has drawn fresh attention to the appeal of residing and investing in the wealthy city-state and other parts of Asia, where tax burdens are significantly lighter than in many Western countries.

...

"The U.S. used to be a moderate tax jurisdiction compared with other countries and it used to be at the forefront of development," said Lora Wilkinson, senior tax consultant at U.S. Tax Advisory International, a Singapore-based tax services firm that specializes in U.S. taxation laws. Now "it seems to be lagging behind countries like Singapore in creating policies to attract business."

She said she gets at least one query per week from Americans who are interested in renouncing their citizenship in favor of becoming Singaporeans.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...WhatsNewsThird

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

That's great. Then Romney can use his Bain history to get himself elected Prime Minister of India, since he's done so much to improve their economy.

Unlike His Unemployedness.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Some of the proposed "solutions" will solve nothing and actually make the problem worse:[/url]

I'm not sure which of my proposed solutions youre talking about. The only real one I made was to make sure that we invest in US citizens ability to compete.

If you're inferring that I am recommending tax hikes on the rich to support that...everyone has to pay a bit. And believe me Eduardo's situation is very rare...how many rich folks walk away from US citizenship? He and Cat Stevens (and Cat's not rich). If anything, offshore accounts and headquarters need to be regulated.

In the end, tons and tons of capital is being generated overseas. The US needs to have the right team in place to go after it. Cutting the tools to make us competitive will result in the Indians/Chinese eating our lunch.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

The shift begins.

The progression for a party to get out of a cul de sac:

1. X is laughable.
2. X is dangerous!!!
3. X should be permitted under careful controlled conditions.
4. I have always wholeheartedly supported X.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...bamas-arsenal/

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

I'm not sure which of my proposed solutions youre talking about. The only real one I made was to make sure that we invest in US citizens ability to compete.

If you're inferring that I am recommending tax hikes on the rich to support that...everyone has to pay a bit. And believe me Eduardo's situation is very rare...how many rich folks walk away from US citizenship? He and Cat Stevens (and Cat's not rich). If anything, offshore accounts and headquarters need to be regulated.

In the end, tons and tons of capital is being generated overseas. The US needs to have the right team in place to go after it. Cutting the tools to make us competitive will result in the Indians/Chinese eating our lunch.

Or, foster a competitive environment to combat those offshore accounts and headquarters. That's why companies are leaving. I mean, look at how Apple sets up corporate shop in Nevada to escape California's taxes.

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

The larger picture is that the foreigners will do a service that Americans won't perform themselves for the same salary. Find me an engineer in the US who will perform finite element analysis 40 hours per week, 50 weeks per year for $20k salary and no benefits and then you will have a point.

Or make an iPhone for 10 cents an hour.

So is your solution to do away with the minimum wage, safety regulations, environmental standards etc and have the vast majority of Americans devolve into a third-world existence? Or to get the Indian and Chinese governments to impose those regulations on business and raise their citizen's standard of living?

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

So is your solution to do away with the minimum wage, safety regulations, environmental standards etc and have the vast majority of Americans devolve into a third-world existence? Or to get the Indian and Chinese governments to impose those regulations on business and raise their citizen's standard of living?

My guess is that his solution would be neither of those options.

"There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

I'm not sure which of my proposed solutions youre talking about. The only real one I made was to make sure that we invest in US citizens ability to compete.

I wasn't talking about your proposed solutions at all! I'm pretty well aligned with you on these matters.

I agree that everyone has to pay a bit more, and that we have to slow the rate of growth in spending (oh, how frustrating it is to try to talk sense with progressives! if you slow the rate of spending increase from 7% to 3% they call that a "cut" and howl to the moon....a 3% increase in spending is NOT a "cut" folks!)

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

I wasn't talking about your proposed solutions at all! I'm pretty well aligned with you on these matters.

I agree that everyone has to pay a bit more, and that we have to slow the rate of growth in spending (oh, how frustrating it is to try to talk sense with progressives! if you slow the rate of spending increase from 7% to 3% they call that a "cut" and howl to the moon....a 3% increase in spending is NOT a "cut" folks!)

But ending a temporary tax cut is a tax increase, right?

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

But ending a temporary tax cut is a tax increase, right?

let's see, if your income is $50,000 this year and you paid $5,000 in income tax this year, and if your income is $50,000 next year and you pay $7,500 in income tax next year, are your taxes higher next year? If so, would the term "increase" be accurate?

now let's look at spending. if you spend $100,000,000,000 this year, and $107,000,000,000 next year, has your spending gone up? Now, if you spend $100,000,000,000 this year and $103,500,000,000 next year, has your spending gone up?

If the answers are yes, then wouldn't the term "increase" be accurate, and that the latter has merely increased less than the former?


C'mon, this isn't that hard, you can do it!




PS so eleven years is "temporary"? interesting......I hope you don't perform any "temporary" maintenance in our neighborhood!!

[Rover]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

The larger picture is that the foreigners will do a service that Americans won't perform themselves for the same salary. Find me an engineer in the US who will perform finite element analysis 40 hours per week, 50 weeks per year for $20k salary and no benefits and then you will have a point. It's not a black-and-white question of whether Americans will or won't perform the service - if tech support paid $200k per year, Americans would be falling all over themselves to perform that service.

Lets dispense with the extremes. Would your company hire US based engineers for 40K a year plus benefits (say 30% on top of that so 52K a year). Mind you, these people don't have to be based in Manhatten. Hell, it sounds like you could hire people who would work from home.

Here's my take: The extra 32K per year for the 3 employees costs your company a whopping $96 grand for the entire year. Maybe that's a lot of money and maybe it isn't. Not sure about the size of your company. However, is that so much to ask to keep jobs in the US? Your company might even be able to weasel a tax break out of it to reduce costs even more. I think an unfortunate fad in American business right now is that you have to outsource jobs overseas or else you're screwing the shareholders. It would be nice to know just how much money is really being saved.

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

let's see, if your income is $50,000 this year and you paid $5,000 in income tax this year, and if your income is $50,000 next year and you pay $7,500 in income tax next year, are your taxes higher next year? If so, would the term "increase" be accurate?

now let's look at spending. if you spend $100,000,000,000 this year, and $107,000,000,000 next year, has your spending gone up? Now, if you spend $100,000,000,000 this year and $103,500,000,000 next year, has your spending gone up?

If the answers are yes, then wouldn't the term "increase" be accurate, and that the latter has merely increased less than the former?


C'mon, this isn't that hard, you can do it!




PS so eleven years is "temporary"? interesting......I hope you don't perform any "temporary" maintenance in our neighborhood!!

The temporary tax cuts were supposed to have already expired, it's not my fault Congress extended them.

By your logic, if Wal*Mart has a sale on widgets that normally are $4.00 each but for two weeks they only cost $2.00, when the sale is over and the price goes back to $4.00 they raised prices by 100%!