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  • The Power of the SCOTUS III: Roberts' Rules of Order

    Carry on....
    "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

    "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

    "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

    "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

  • #2
    Re: The Power of the SCOTUS III: Roberts' Rules of Order

    If you know who ever speaks.....

    CCT '77 & '78
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    ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
    - Benjamin Franklin

    Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

    I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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    • #3
      Re: The Power of the SCOTUS III: Roberts' Rules of Order

      While we wait for developments on the SCOTUS docket, here's something I learned not too long ago that I found absolutely fascinating.

      It turns out that "an eye for an eye", when seen in the historical context of the time in which it was introduced as a judicial principle, was actually an advancement in defendants' rights!

      Think of it as the "Miranda decision" of its day.

      Apparently, according to this author (print copy, sorrry).. before AEFaE, the rule used to be, "you break my arm, I kill you, rape your wife, slay your son, eat your cattle." An "Eye For an Eye" actually restricted the level of retribution only to the damage actually incurred.



      I guess that ruling became BCE precedent for the common law that underlies some of SCOTUS' rulings today . . . . Stare decisis I think they call it?

      I always get a visual picture of a really big person with a big person his his shoulders with a medium-sized person on her shoulders, etc. stacked up like a set of Russian dolls turned inside out, if you can picture that image....
      Last edited by FreshFish; 04-28-2012, 01:15 AM.
      "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

      "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

      "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

      "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The Power of the SCOTUS III: Roberts' Rules of Order

        Subscribed because I'm out of lines.
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        • #5
          Re: The Power of the SCOTUS III: Roberts' Rules of Order

          Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
          It turns out that "an eye for an eye", when seen in the historical context of the time in which it was introduced as a judicial principle, was actually an advancement in defendants' rights!

          Think of it as the "Miranda decision" of its day.

          Apparently, according to this author (print copy, sorrry).. before AEFaE, the rule used to be, "you break my arm, I kill you, rape your wife, slay your son, eat your cattle." An "Eye For an Eye" actually restricted the level of retribution only to the damage actually incurred.

          Hammurabi. Wrong on crime. Wrong for Babylonia.

          Paid for by citizens to elect Shamshi-Adad.
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          • #6
            Re: The Power of the SCOTUS III: Roberts' Rules of Order

            I see the 9th Circuit Court (which supposedly has the reputation as the most left-wing court in the US) has thrown out Jose Padilla's suit against John Yoo.

            http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/03/us...hrown-out.html

            An appeals court in San Francisco on Wednesday threw out a convicted terrorist’s lawsuit accusing a high-ranking Bush administration lawyer who wrote the so-called torture memos of authorizing illegally harsh treatment of “enemy combatants.” The lawyer, John Yoo, above, a former deputy assistant attorney general, is protected from such lawsuits because the law defining torture and the treatment of enemy combatants was unsettled in the two years after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, when the memos were written, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit said
            "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

            "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

            "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

            "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The Power of the SCOTUS III: Roberts' Rules of Order

              Who's Up for Some Court Packing?

              An article by Will Tuell (who apparently is or was a local town selectman) in the Downeast Coastal Press reports that State Senator Cynthia Dill — seemingly the leader in the Democratic primary, though not necessarily a strong competitor to Independent candidate and former Governor Angus King — endorses Court-packing:
              On the issue of whether the Supreme Court needs to be reformed, Dill, a civil rights lawyer with experience in the federal court system, called for major changes reminiscent of those sought by President Franklin Delano Roosevelt. …

              Dill said she approves of President Obama’s picks and would consider expanding the number of justices on the Court if decisions she sees as unfavorable continue to be passed down. “I think there’s promise, but if we continue to get these poor decisions, I’m not opposed to adding justices. The Constitution doesn’t say we have to have nine justices, and if these nine can’t figure it out and keep producing 5-4 decisions that are crippling our country, let’s throw a few more good justices on the Court and straighten things out.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The Power of the SCOTUS III: Roberts' Rules of Order

                I never quite understand court packing aficionados. Don't they understand infinite series?
                Cornell University
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                • #9
                  Re: The Power of the SCOTUS III: Roberts' Rules of Order

                  Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                  I never quite understand court packing aficionados. Don't they understand infinite series?
                  Unfortunately, I do understand [some] court-packing aficionados, though I wish I didn't.*

                  For them, "understanding" does not enter into it; it is a question of moral virtue which is inaccessible to reason, since it operates on a "higher plane" than mere human rationality.

                  For many, it goes beyond, "We are so totally right and everyone else is so totally wrong;" it also includes "we are virtuous, and anyone who disagrees with us 'must be' not virtuous, so that it is okay for us to treat them as morally deranged."



                  * "understanding" is often over-rated. Changing the subject: I can "understand" why a person in a fit of rage would do violent bodily harm to someone he professes to love: "understanding" in this context is sometimes proffered as a form of justification when some things are just never okay ever. Hence my statement that "understanding is often over-rated."
                  Last edited by FreshFish; 05-10-2012, 12:51 PM.
                  "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                  "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                  "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                  "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The Power of the SCOTUS III: Roberts' Rules of Order

                    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                    For many, it goes beyond, "We are so totally right and everyone else is so totally wrong;" it also includes "we are virtuous, and anyone who disagrees with us 'must be' not virtuous, so that it is okay for us to treat them as morally deranged."
                    Oh, I get all that. I was simply wondering how people who see 4+2 > 5 can't see that 4+2 < 5+2.
                    Cornell University
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                    • #11
                      Re: The Power of the SCOTUS III: Roberts' Rules of Order

                      Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                      It's not quite clear whether you actually do, or not.

                      "You're with us or against us" often means either you are a Yankees fan or a Red Sox fan, or a Cubs fan or a White Sox fan, or a Man U fan or a Man City fan; you can't possibly say you are for both, you have to be either for one or the other, there's no middle ground.

                      That merely makes fans of the other teams despised or hated rivals, it does not necessarily make them inherently evil as well. Rivalries have civilized limits; no matter how ardent a fan you are of one team, typically you don't physically attack them with intent to maim or kill.


                      For some of these "court-packing" people, there's an additional extra "edge" or element attached beyond a "mere" rivalry. Some partisans are so ardent that they are not satisfied merely to "win," that's not enough. You don't just "win" over evil, you actually have to eradicate it as well.

                      Yes, that is pathological; and yes, there are some disturbed souls out there with a platform from which to rally others who really do think that "winning" is insufficient.
                      Last edited by FreshFish; 05-10-2012, 03:00 PM.
                      "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                      "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                      "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                      "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The Power of the SCOTUS III: Roberts' Rules of Order

                        Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                        It's not quite clear whether you actually do, or not.
                        I'll connect some dots.

                        The "demonization of the neutral" is the calling card of the type of mindset you were talking about, where the opponent is literally evil incarnate (since to be neutral about evil is to be its enabler). That gives the fanatic the "confidence" to grant himself an exception to procedural norms, ranging from court packing to torturing. The neutral is an abomination to him because neutrality, far more than enmity, is a refutation of his Manichean worldview.

                        It's a sign of the decline of our civilization that virtually every "action" movie is a playing out of the adolescent fantasy of violently subverting social norms to do what's "right." An enormous percentage of our population is apparently so lost to reason that they dream of making themselves a little god and beating people up (only the right people, of course -- those who deserve it). That way truly lies madness.
                        Last edited by Kepler; 05-10-2012, 04:18 PM.
                        Cornell University
                        National Champion 1967, 1970
                        ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                        Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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                        • #13
                          Re: The Power of the SCOTUS III: Roberts' Rules of Order

                          Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                          I'll connect some dots.

                          The "demonization of the neutral" is the calling card of the type of mindset you were talking about, where the opponent is literally evil incarnate (since to be neutral about evil is to be its enabler). That gives the fanatic the "confidence" to grant himself an exception to procedural norms, ranging from court packing to torturing. The neutral is an abomination to him because neutrality, far more than enmity, is a refutation of his Manichean worldview.

                          It's a sign of the decline of our civilization that virtually every "action" movie is a playing out of the adolescent fantasy of violently subverting social norms to do what's "right." An enormous percentage of our population is apparently so lost to reason that they dream of making themselves a little god and beating people up (only the right people, of course -- those who deserve it). That way truly lies madness.
                          We can agree on that.

                          At one time, we could have a hard-fought athletic contest and then go out for post-match beverages and enjoy each other's company. Now we are trying to main each other during the contest itself. There is something seriously disturbed about a "win at all costs mentality" because the costs are higher than the gain that comes from "winning."
                          "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                          "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                          "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                          "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The Power of the SCOTUS III: Roberts' Rules of Order

                            Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                            There is something seriously disturbed about a "win at all costs mentality" because the costs are higher than the gain that comes from "winning."
                            It may just be the movies I self-select, but one of the common themes of many of the movies I enjoy from the 40s and 50s is the internal battle of the hero between the instinct to seek revenge and the civilized lesson that there are limits and rules. It comes down to the age old dilemma: how do you fight a wrong without becoming a wrong? Modern entertainment seems to have completely abandoned this dilemma for expediency, thrills, or just a cheap laugh:



                            Funny, but telling.
                            Cornell University
                            National Champion 1967, 1970
                            ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                            Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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                            • #15
                              Re: The Power of the SCOTUS III: Roberts' Rules of Order

                              Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                              It may just be the movies I self-select, but one of the common themes of many of the movies I enjoy from the 40s and 50s is the internal battle of the hero between the instinct to seek revenge and the civilized lesson that there are limits and rules. It comes down to the age old dilemma: how do you fight a wrong without becoming a wrong?
                              One of the reasons that westerns from that time period can be so compellling...Shane and The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence,among others, both wrestled with that theme.
                              "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                              "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                              "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                              "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                              Comment

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