2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I disagree. They are not the lesser of two evils. You just prefer borrow and spending to taxing and spending, or in the recent admins case spend and spending. Neither side when given a lot of control has ever made an effort to reduce spending. To give a major compliment like "the lesser of two evils" out in times like this is a lie.

You are wrong. I realize it's politicallly expedient to focus on that one event, but you really need to take a longer term perspective. If you had ever read anything by me, you know I oppose borrow and spend vehemently. But, I realize it's easy to just spout a bit of political jargon like that.

[Kepler]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Ron Paul

As much as I think Paul is cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs about some things (you don't need an elaborate conspiracy theory about the Fed, you only need to know it was the banksters who set it up and still run it, so guess whose interests they're serving?), he does seem to be genuinely interested in fiscal responsibility. I would love to see Paul become the voice of the Republican Party, but that is roughly as likely as Paul becoming the voice of the Democratic Party.

[sagard]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

... No, but they are the lesser of the two evils in this situation, based on the long history of this issue, not one event...

I disagree. They are not the lesser of two evils. You just prefer borrow and spending to taxing and spending, or in the recent admins case spend and spending. Neither side when given a lot of control has ever made an effort to reduce spending. To give a major compliment like "the lesser of two evils" out in times like this is a lie.

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Really? Who? Not Cantor or any of the Tea Partiers. Tell me who these mythical GOPers are that are pushing for true Fiscal Responsibility because none of the vocal members seem to know what the words mean.

Ron Paul

[sagard]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

There was a time when our nation was interested in having positive policies that would encourage stable and healthy families. And until recent social engineering, no one saw any sort of issue here, but now everything is made an issue.

Wouldn't allowing more people to marry encourage additional stable and healthy families?

As pointed out this argument is beyond stupid and is manipulated by whatever politicians think they can gain from it.

We should simply give the term "marriage" to whatever church wants to use it. They can marry who they want, it's their church.

Gov't defines civil unions and doesn't discriminate. With a civil union you get the current "benefits" of marriage such as medical coverage, tax breaks, inheritance rights, etc...

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

There was a time when our nation was interested in having positive policies that would encourage stable and healthy families.

Would you classify a family headed by a same-sex couple to be a "stable, healthy family"?

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

The main problem no one ever seems to talk about is that states (and I include the federal government in this) have no business being in the marriage business at all. It's a religious issue, and that's where it should be kept. If the the catholics want to ban gay marriage, if the mormons want to recognize plural marriages, who cares. That's between the institution of the church and the members of that church.

The problem is that we have decided to superimpose over that religious sacrament some sort of state recognition, or licensure, and then start adding complicating factors like "marital" rights to certan benefits, inheritance rights, tax breaks, and a whole lot of other arbitrary associations with this religious act of marriage.

If the states would simply do away with that, and handle all of these issues using partnership and contract law (which could easily be done), none of this stupidity has to occur.

There was a time when our nation was interested in having positive policies that would encourage stable and healthy families. And until recent social engineering, no one saw any sort of issue here, but now everything is made an issue.

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

If God is against it, why should I be for it?

Then again, God says "Thou shalt not commit adultery" and a lot of people think that's OK, too.

We're supposed to let them tell us what is what. And we better like it or they'll make life more and more difficult for us. Yes, zey vill.

[joecct]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Face facts, its bigotry whether you like it or not. It is also a violation of civil rights and goes against the shooting down of "Separate But Equal" because the bible says its icky.

If God is against it, why should I be for it?

Then again, God says "Thou shalt not commit adultery" and a lot of people think that's OK, too.

[SJHovey]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Why should they have to form a corporation to get the same rights the average slob in North Carolina has?

By that ridiculously stupid standard states should be allowed to stop interracial marriages for the same reason. I mean if Tremaine and Mindy can just for a corporation and get the same rights why should Virginia or South Carolina be forced to allow them to marry? Or hey, lets say Florida feels Blacks or Cubans shouldn't vote, they could just take that right away and it would be ok because said people could just form a corporation and, since they are people, donate as much money as they want and have their voices heard even if they cant vote.

Face facts, its bigotry whether you like it or not. It is also a violation of civil rights and goes against the shooting down of "Separate But Equal" because the bible says its icky.

The main problem no one ever seems to talk about is that states (and I include the federal government in this) have no business being in the marriage business at all. It's a religious issue, and that's where it should be kept. If the the catholics want to ban gay marriage, if the mormons want to recognize plural marriages, who cares. That's between the institution of the church and the members of that church.

The problem is that we have decided to superimpose over that religious sacrament some sort of state recognition, or licensure, and then start adding complicating factors like "marital" rights to certan benefits, inheritance rights, tax breaks, and a whole lot of other arbitrary associations with this religious act of marriage.

If the states would simply do away with that, and handle all of these issues using partnership and contract law (which could easily be done), none of this stupidity has to occur.

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Really? Who? Not Cantor or any of the Tea Partiers. Tell me who these mythical GOPers are that are pushing for true Fiscal Responsibility because none of the vocal members seem to know what the words mean.

We've been through this exercise many times before. Yawn. Jeff Flake, 6th District here in Arizona is a good example.

[bronconick]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Really? Who? Not Cantor or any of the Tea Partiers. Tell me who these mythical GOPers are that are pushing for true Fiscal Responsibility because none of the vocal members seem to know what the words mean.

There might still be a senator or two.

You gotta feel for "True American Conservatives." There aren't any in office, and they don't have any fiscal responsibility either. Apparently despite a sizeable portion of the country calling themselves "Conservative", they're no more effective at getting actual conservatives into office than the "Liberals" that are about a quarter of the size are on their end.

[Handyman]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Really? Who? Not Cantor or any of the Tea Partiers. Tell me who these mythical GOPers are that are pushing for true Fiscal Responsibility because none of the vocal members seem to know what the words mean.

[bronconick]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Right now, it doesn't matter, because the more fiscally conservative party is also the socially liberal one.

The GOP lost any credance at being fiscally conservative when Eric Cantor and the Tea Party derp-brigade scuttled the grand bargain that would have given them 98% of what they wanted. "No new taxes" is as fiscally irresponsible as any spending right now.

That entire thing was the domestic equivalent of when the Israelis offered Arafat 95% of what he asked for and he walked away because he never had the authority or intention to agree and wanted nothing more than to blow the other side up.

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Right now, it doesn't matter, because the more fiscally conservative party is also the socially liberal one.

The GOP lost any credance at being fiscally conservative when Eric Cantor and the Tea Party derp-brigade scuttled the grand bargain that would have given them 98% of what they wanted. "No new taxes" is as fiscally irresponsible as any spending right now.

That's hilarious. I disagree with how the GOP went about those negotiations, but there are folks in the GOP who are way more interested in restoring fiscal sanity than any Democrats are and that's been played out for a long time. Is the GOP as a whole good on fiscal discipline? No, but they are the lesser of the two evils in this situation, based on the long history of this issue, not one event.