2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

[leswp1]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Not trying to convince anyone. Just calling a spade a spade. There's a bitter disdain for his opponents that eaks out sometimes that I don't recall seeing in any other recent president of either party. There's times where he's just so sure of himself and when someone disagrees, he doesn't take it well, though he usually keeps a lid on it, not always.

I am neither a fan of Obama's or someone who hates him. I certainly don't think he has the answer to most things but what you posted is from some alternate universe. I suppose if you work hard enough you can ascribe just about any attitude or motivation to someone. How you can get bitter disdain out of a man who has been like milque toast toward those opposed to him until recently is beyond any leap of faith I can comprehend. It just baffles me. I would call him ineffective but disdainful

[FreshFish]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

So one speech = 28 straight weeks of campaigning at the expense of the Oval Office? Given how epically bad you insist he's been you'd think you'd want him out of Washington anyway.

Reminds me of the joke about the roof....

I thought I was pretty clear that my speculation was "what was he thinking about how people who don't follow politics all day all the time might react to his speech." It had nothing to do with my opinion of his job performance so far or what I may or may not want.

How logical is it for him to argue "I can't govern well because of Congress, that's why you should re-elect me" or to say "since you need me as President to govern, I'm going to set aside governing for campaigning."

That has nothing to do with me or what I may or may not want.

Also, perhaps this might be news to you, but it is the case that some people who have no use for Rush and don't pay attention to Fox News and don't support Republicans also have little use for Obama's agenda and don't support Democrats either. I know that for simple minds it is easy to pretend that someone must either be "for" Obama or be "for" the Republicans, but those of us who have progressed beyond coloring books realize the world is more complex and more nuanced than that.

[5mn_Major]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Correct me if I'm wrong...but doesn't every sitting president campaign off and on throughout the last year in their term.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Correct me if I'm wrong...but doesn't every sitting president campaign off and on throughout the last year in their term.

No. Only if he's a Democrat.

[FreshFish]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Correct me if I'm wrong...but doesn't every sitting president campaign off and on throughout the last year in their term.

I don't suggest you are "wrong" as much as you are looking at a truncated timeline....also, you mention "off and on" which suggests a mix of campaiging and governing.

Eisenhower was famous in '56 foreign policy crises for saying "d&mn the election I'm doing what's right"....on the other hand, it's not like Stevenson was going to outpoll him anyway, no matter what he did.

Nixon campaigned much less often and started much later (and he was running against McGovern, so he didn't need to exert himself much).

Ford, same thing.

Carter, same thing.

Bush 41, same thing.

Clinton, same thing.

Bush 43, he campaigned a bit more perhaps but he also was busy with other things, also, he had surrogates working on his behalf, and it's not like Kerry was all that dynamic a rival either. Most of the mud was flung by others and Bush himself tried to act "presidential" as best he could and remain pretty much above the fray himself.


We'll see what follows, it's not at all that he occasionally campaigns, it is a combination of the relative proportion, combined with such extreme stridency so early in the cycle, coming directly from the president himself instead of the usual hatchetmen and hired guns, that to me seems anomalous when put in context of the list above. I mean, he was even lecturing the media on how to portray the election, which I submit is unorthodox behavior from a sitting President.

I'm not saying it's good or bad or justified or unjustified, I guess it is extremely wry humor to say it is "unprecedented" eh?

[Old Pio]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Starting about the time Newt became Speaker, the GOP's narrative has been that they are shocked!, appalled!, troubled! and offended! by anything with a "D" after it. Their criticisms are completely independent of content; they've been running an endless smear campaign for 18 straight years. They went into Search And Destroy mode so long ago that an entire generation of dittoheads has grown up without any concept of national good, just partisan elbowing.

The Republicans have become a Troll Party. Aside from the pursuit of power for its own sake, they've had no reason to exist for decades. They're going to be screwed if conservatives ever figure it out.

On the other hand, it took liberals 25 years to learn the same lesson about the Democratic Party and take it back from the hacks. So the right isn't due to start growing up until around 2019.

Ms. Wasserman Schultz isn't a hack? Or Ms Pelosi? Or Mr. Weiner?

[joecct]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

The extremists on both sides have got to go. However, gerrymandering and the power of the incumbency have ensured that these folks are the ones who are constantly returned to power year after year. Face it, outside of the biological solution, the only way Pelosi, DW-S, Boehner, or Cantor get shot down is if (I can't think of a way, can you)?

Are we screwed or not?

[Foxton]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Are we screwed or not?

There is no way to describe how screwed we all are.

[joecct]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

There is no way to describe how screwed we all are.

You
Always
Have
Other
Options

What are our options?

[5mn_Major]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I don't suggest you are "wrong" as much as you are looking at a truncated timeline....also, you mention "off and on" which suggests a mix of campaiging and governing.

Eisenhower was famous in '56 foreign policy crises for saying "d&mn the election I'm doing what's right"....on the other hand, it's not like Stevenson was going to outpoll him anyway, no matter what he did.

Nixon campaigned much less often and started much later (and he was running against McGovern, so he didn't need to exert himself much).

Ford, same thing.

Carter, same thing.

Bush 41, same thing.

Clinton, same thing.

Bush 43, he campaigned a bit more perhaps but he also was busy with other things, also, he had surrogates working on his behalf, and it's not like Kerry was all that dynamic a rival either. Most of the mud was flung by others and Bush himself tried to act "presidential" as best he could and remain pretty much above the fray himself.

I'm not saying it's good or bad or justified or unjustified, I guess it is extremely wry humor to say it is "unprecedented" eh?

I've seen nothing that leads me to believe that youre correct (or incorrect)

Typically I'm reluctant to take somebody's statement of fact that something happened when the evidence they use are other generic statements of fact...that have no evidence tied them either. Americans have been fed a steady diet of baseless opinion couched as fact by the likes of Rush and Fox for over a decade and a half now.

[bronconick]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

The extremists on both sides have got to go. However, gerrymandering and the power of the incumbency have ensured that these folks are the ones who are constantly returned to power year after year. Face it, outside of the biological solution, the only way Pelosi, DW-S, Boehner, or Cantor get shot down is if (I can't think of a way, can you)?

Are we screwed or not?

We're screwed. And it just gets worse over time. At least 20 years ago it was one side of "raise taxes, expand government" and "cut taxes, shrink government." In theory, both sides were at least trying to be revenue neutral.

Now everyone's perfectly fine with kicking the can down the street and the only real difference is who's getting the gold pilfered from the treasury.

Alexis de Toqueville was right about the Republic lasting until Congress learned it could bribe the people with their own money. He missed the parts where Congress itself was bribed and everyone else was bribed by IOU's that we'll never pay off.

[Old Pio]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I've seen nothing that leads me to believe that youre correct (or incorrect)

Typically I'm reluctant to take somebody's statement of fact that something happened when the evidence they use are other generic statements of fact...that have no evidence tied them either. Americans have been fed a steady diet of baseless opinion couched as fact by the likes of Rush and Fox for over a decade and a half now.

Ah yes, the catecism: It's Bush's fault, Bush did it first, Bush is way worse. As far as "baseless opinion" is concerned, you ladies in the ******* chorale do a pretty good job of holding up your end of the bargain. It's almost as if you invented begging the question.

[FreshFish]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I've seen nothing that leads me to believe that youre correct (or incorrect).

I do think it's "generally accepted wisdom" that the President of either party up for re-election typically has surrogates who make his attacks for him, at least until the last days of the campaign. It is part of the game of appearances, he at least wants to appear "Presidential."

What seems atypical is how early Obama personally entered the fray with so much venom.

Especially when facing a relatively weak candidate....

1992 was an anomaly, as GHWB finished 2nd in a three-way election; thanks to Perot's candidacy, Clinton won only 43% of the popular vote.

1996, Clinton really didn't need to get worked about about Bob Dole; in 2004, Bush didn't really need to say much about Kerry, the Swift Boaters were doing plenty of damage already, and Kerry did not run much of a campaign either. As those are the prior two sitting Presidents who ran for re-election, you can see the contrast yourself without taking my word for anything.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

That's venom?

Please. I hear that level of venom out of each Republican candidate on a daily basis. Newt on Fix News yesterday is a fine example.

[leswp1]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I do think it's "generally accepted wisdom" that the President of either party up for re-election typically has surrogates who make his attacks for him, at least until the last days of the campaign. It is part of the game of appearances, he at least wants to appear "Presidential."

What seems atypical is how early Obama personally entered the fray with so much venom.

Especially when facing a relatively weak candidate....

1992 was an anomaly, as GHWB finished 2nd in a three-way election; thanks to Perot's candidacy, Clinton won only 43% of the popular vote.

1996, Clinton really didn't need to get worked about about Bob Dole; in 2004, Bush didn't really need to say much about Kerry, the Swift Boaters were doing plenty of damage already, and Kerry did not run much of a campaign either. As those are the prior two sitting Presidents who ran for re-election, you can see the contrast yourself without taking my word for anything.

I don't find this particularly surprising. The vitriol has gone up a few notches from the 'usual' for the whole primary season and the GOP. One of the Presidents biggest problems with his base IMO is his looking like a pansy when dealing with the opposition. His attempts to deal on a civil, compromising level (which pandered to the moderate/temperate faction) did not engage the other side and many people viewed that as a weakness. The moderates aren't the ones who drive elections. My guess is he is trying to prove that he is willing to play hardball. The hard left people I know are breathing a sigh of relief that he is finally playing on the same level as 'the enemy'.

I don't see how it does much for the process of governing but it reminds me of the way they tell kids to deal with bullies. Ignoring it because the kid is a jerk is supposed to be OK but when the kid finally fights back everyone roots for the kid who was bullied even if they go way overboard.