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  • #61
    Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

    Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    Not only that but Obamacare is exactly that, collaboration between government and business.
    Which reflects its roots as the Republican solution to head off a true government program.
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    • #62
      Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

      Which is workable (albeit unconstitutional) up to the point where you have to cover pre-existing conditions. Once that is in place its like buying insurance after you house has already burned down.

      The solution to this whole mess is to get rid of all the mandates and give individuals the deduction instead of employers. That would drive up wages (since those are still deductable) and allow people to get catestrophic coverage very cheaply at a minimum. It would certainly be less than people are already paying for cable, internet and their cell phones.
      "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

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      • #63
        Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

        Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
        Even Karl Marx said that capitalism is the most efficient economic system ever devised. His critique was that "efficiency" should not be the top priority of a humane society.
        As a student of Marx you also know he felt that the efficiencies of capitalism would also undermine it -- the most efficient firms would destroy their less efficient competitors, ad infinitum, until there were so few winners and so many losers that the system would collapse from lack of societal approval.

        Marx and the 19th C Marxists didn't foresee the ability of democratic societies to effectively curb the self-destructive tendencies of capitalism by regulating businesses, breaking monopolies, broadening educational opportunities and creating social welfare mechanisms. They thought those things would be at best cynical and inadequate ways of co-opting the middle class to protect the interests of big capital against the proletariat. This isn't surprising, given the realities of 19th C business and politics. With the 20th C, power in democracies was held widely enough (for a while) that real improvements were made. Those have now been eroded to the point where the self-destructive nature of unregulated capitalism is again starting to be a problem.

        The other criticism of Marx, which is more controversial, is that he didn't take into account the ability of capitalism to grow the pie so fast that even as the percentage of the pie owned by workers decreased the absolute size of their slice increased. This is controversial because later Marxists insist they did take this into account with world system theories, and that growth is in large part due to the exploitation of the third world by the first world. Today's globalization is actually very close to what those guys at the Second International thought was happening to their world in 1890. It's just happening a hundred years later -- maybe because the destructive world wars of the 20th C set the clock back a bit.

        There are strongly moralistic tones in Marx, but it's important to recognize that the core of the theory (correct or not) is that the machine destroys itself quite apart from anybody's desires or anybody's ideals. In fact, the capitalists are just as screwed as the proles in the latter stages, because they are running faster and faster just to stay in one place.
        Last edited by Kepler; 03-29-2012, 11:58 AM.
        Cornell University
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        • #64
          Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

          One of my many concerns with this is that we've seen how awful Social Security and Medicare have been handled, hence my weariness about a government-funded program.

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          • #65
            Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

            Originally posted by MinnFan View Post
            The solution to this whole mess is to get rid of all the mandates and give individuals the deduction instead of employers. That would drive up wages (since those are still deductable) .
            Why do you think it would drive up wages? Why wouldn't employers just keep people at the same wages they're used to getting, and then keep the rest for themselves?
            Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

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            • #66
              Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

              Originally posted by Rover View Post
              Why do you think it would drive up wages? Why wouldn't employers just keep people at the same wages they're used to getting, and then keep the rest for themselves?
              Let me introduce you to the concept of supply and demand. Supply and demand, Rover. Rover, supply and demand. I think you two will get along well. Cocktail, anyone?
              If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

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              • #67
                Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

                Originally posted by Rover View Post
                Why do you think it would drive up wages? Why wouldn't employers just keep people at the same wages they're used to getting, and then keep the rest for themselves?
                Remember, the employer contribution is still cash out the door and we pay very little attention to the Statement of Cash Flows when the Income Statement bottom line could all be accounting tricks to jack up the profit. By not including it, you've jacked up the profit (removing an expense), but kept the change in cash flows constant.

                The employer contribution still a legitimate expense of doing business under GAAP. Changing the (unworkable) tax code to fit *another* social condition will result in some other f-up. If you want to move health care expense to "below the line" for employees like it was before, OK, but with wages being pretty much stagnant, I don't think that's a good idea right now.
                CCT '77 & '78
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                - Benjamin Franklin

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Rover View Post
                  Source, please.
                  www.factsforhealthcare.com/whitepaper/healthcarewaste.pdf
                  Study conducted by Thomson Reuters.
                  Bruce Ciskie > PA

                  Everyone should believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer.

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                  • #69
                    Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

                    Originally posted by Rover View Post
                    Why do you think it would drive up wages? Why wouldn't employers just keep people at the same wages they're used to getting, and then keep the rest for themselves?
                    It won't. Just like the economic expansion from the Bush tax cuts didn't "drive up" wages. Driving up wages is fantasyland. Stock price? Profit? That's what will be driven up.
                    **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                    Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                    Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

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                    • #70
                      Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

                      Originally posted by Plante26 View Post
                      www.factsforhealthcare.com/whitepaper/healthcarewaste.pdf
                      Study conducted by Thomson Reuters.
                      I bet that's not an approved news source.

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                      • #71
                        Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

                        Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
                        It won't. Just like the economic expansion from the Bush tax cuts didn't "drive up" wages. Driving up wages is fantasyland. Stock price? Profit? That's what will be driven up.
                        Invest now. The families you'll defend probably have enough coinage under the couch cushions to buy a few shares.

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                        • #72
                          Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

                          Originally posted by FlagDUDE08 View Post
                          Invest now. The families you'll defend probably have enough coinage under the couch cushions to buy a few shares.
                          Won't help. Stock market is a racket for those in the know. The market goes up and then all the folks at the top pull all their profits out and rebuy everything at a discount. Investing hasn't helped or saved the middle class.
                          **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                          Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                          Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

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                          • #73
                            Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

                            Originally posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
                            Won't help. Stock market is a racket for those in the know. The market goes up and then all the folks at the top pull all their profits out and rebuy everything at a discount. Investing hasn't helped or saved the middle class.
                            Get in the game. Know when to buy and know when to sell. Pay attention. If I can do it (and I have a day job), so can they.

                            Is it that difficult to walk to the library every week and research your stock of choice to know when it might be a good time to pull out?
                            Last edited by FlagDUDE08; 03-29-2012, 03:06 PM.

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                            • #74
                              Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

                              Originally posted by LynahFan View Post
                              Let me introduce you to the concept of supply and demand. Supply and demand, Rover. Rover, supply and demand. I think you two will get along well. Cocktail, anyone?
                              Could we also introduce the concepts of investment risk and expected return on investment? They appear to be absent from this discussion as well.
                              I believe in life, and I believe in love, but the world in which I live in keeps trying to prove me wrong.

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                              • #75
                                Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

                                Originally posted by FlagDUDE08 View Post
                                Is it that difficult to walk to the library every week and research...when it might be a good time to pull out?
                                When did this turn into the birth control debate?

                                Cornell '04, Stanford '06

                                KDR

                                Rover Frenchy, Classic! Great post.
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                                Miss Thundercat That's it, you win.
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                                DisplacedCornellian Hahaha. Thread over. Frenchy wins.

                                Test to see if I can add this.

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