The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

[joecct]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Thank you for making my point for me.

And in 2003-08 the government in collusion with the private sector on Wall Street stole trillions of dollars from the American People.

If I invested $1 in 1992 and it was worth $100 on 1/21/2001 and then on 1/21/09 it was worth $1, who stole what?

If I invested in gold today, and on Election Day 2012 gold has lost 1/2 its current value, who stole my money?

[Jimjamesak]

It was a major tax cut for small businesses. The engine of the economy. I expect when the economy goes up wages to go up. Neither happened. You give more money back to companies and two things will happen.

1. Profits will go up.l
2. CEO bonuses will go up.

Middle Income wages won't budge an inch.

And that would be why I pay a union to negotiate a CBA that can guarantee me a good raise if the company is making profit.

And that would be why many analysts consider my company a bad stock to invest in.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

And that would be why I pay a union to negotiate a CBA that can guarantee me a good raise if the company is making profit.

And that would be why many analysts consider my company a bad stock to invest in.

And that union abusing the power you give them would be why we have even more of a mess than we have now.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

If I invested $1 in 1992 and it was worth $100 on 1/21/2001 and then on 1/21/09 it was worth $1, who stole what?

If I invested in gold today, and on Election Day 2012 gold has lost 1/2 its current value, who stole my money?

You think the collapse was legal? You think the bank CEO's that received bonuses while receiving Government bailouts is right? Where's my bailout?

[Jimjamesak]

And that union abusing the power you give them would be why we have even more of a mess than we have now.

What kind of power is my union abusing? Donating to political campaigns? To PACs?

How is that any different from what the companies are doing? It's not the unions fault, that's the laws fault.

[leswp1]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

And that union abusing the power you give them would be why we have even more of a mess than we have now.

Did you ever study the industrial revolution in school, read "The Jungle" or see news reports of how the workers in China are being worked to death? Unions came out of a need. To dismiss all unions as criminal is as silly as saying they are all perfect and do no wrong. When I worked in a hospital and got hurt the hospital tried to railroad me out of my job and fire me. I had been back at work for less than 4 hours and reinjured. They managed to give me an evaluation before I left that day that contradicted everything that had been said of me in the last few reviews, setting me up to be fired so they didn't have to foot the risk of someone with a bad back. Without my union (Nurses' union) I would have been in deep doodoo. I couldn't lift and was unable to continue in my profession. If I didn't have a union I was toast. I could never have afforded a lawyer.

[Kepler]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Saying "unions are bad" is like saying "corporations are bad." Each has a salutary purpose; each can be abused.

Real life is difficult and involves constantly re-balancing these powers against each other. A world with either completely dominating the other would be terrible. But that doesn't fit on a bumper sticker.

See also: private sector vs public sector, left vs right, individual freedom vs caring for others, non-aggression vs military preparedness, ... all the great false dichotomies.

[Rover]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

You guys are trying to reason with idiots. There's no reasoning with idiots. Just sit back and laugh while Mittens goes down in flames. I personally would like to live in this fantasyland world where corporations turn around and give their extra money back to employees, but unfortunately I live in the real world so no such luck. Scooby's tax analogy was 100% spot on. Companies got to keep more revenue via tax cuts in the 2000's, but wages stayed flat. Meaning, companies used the proceeds from lower taxes on something other than their employees. Why a reduction in health care contributions would be any different is unclear, aside from some vague sense that corporate management would somehow decide to not give the proceeds to the people who hired them and instead give it to the people with no say over who runs the company. Makes sense to me....

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

You think the collapse was legal? You think the bank CEO's that received bonuses while receiving Government bailouts is right? Where's my bailout?

You buy a house for $200,000. About 20 years later, you sell it for $150,000. Who stole your $50,000?
Conversely, take that same $200,000 house, and about 20 years later, you sell it for $250,000. Should you be arrested for stealing $50,000?

[Rover]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Every place I've ever worked, the company told us what % of the healthcare premium they were paying for us and what % we were paying. Rarely would Scooby Doo and I agree, but here, "do the math."

Yes, i've heard Starbucks is good to their people even if they transfer to different stores.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Saying "unions are bad" is like saying "corporations are bad." Each has a salutary purpose; each can be abused.

Real life is difficult and involves constantly re-balancing these powers against each other. A world with either completely dominating the other would be terrible. But that doesn't fit on a bumper sticker.

See also: private sector vs public sector, left vs right, individual freedom vs caring for others, non-aggression vs military preparedness, ... all the great false dichotomies.

Well put. Personally, I see no difference between corporations and unions. It's only because someone feels that they are advantaged by one over the other that they believe one is good and one is evil.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

You buy a house for $200,000. About 20 years later, you sell it for $150,000. Who stole your $50,000?
Conversely, take that same $200,000 house, and about 20 years later, you sell it for $250,000. Should you be arrested for stealing $50,000?

So, you think the collapse was on the up and up. That's fine. I disagree and if the collapse hadn't happened the government would not be as "starved" as it is. A condition the Republicans craved, AND the middle class wouldn't be as poor as it is now another condition the Republicans craved.

You're analogy is flawed. If I lose money on my investment because of the criminal actions of others that's stealing. If I make money off of my investment without a criminal act that's investing.

[LynahFan]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

You guys are trying to reason with idiots. There's no reasoning with idiots. Just sit back and laugh while Mittens goes down in flames. I personally would like to live in this fantasyland world where corporations turn around and give their extra money back to employees, but unfortunately I live in the real world so no such luck. Scooby's tax analogy was 100% spot on. Companies got to keep more revenue via tax cuts in the 2000's, but wages stayed flat. Meaning, companies used the proceeds from lower taxes on something other than their employees. Why a reduction in health care contributions would be any different is unclear, aside from some vague sense that corporate management would somehow decide to not give the proceeds to the people who hired them and instead give it to the people with no say over who runs the company. Makes sense to me....

For the bazillionth time, it's not that the companies would WANT to "give" money to employees - they would have to increase wages to retain their employees. How much did employee out-of-pocket spending go up as a result of the 2000 tax cuts? How much would employee out-of-pocket spending go up if the company stopped paying for health care? And you're "unclear" on why this is any different? Better check your eyeglasses prescription.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

So, you think the collapse was on the up and up. That's fine. I disagree and if the collapse hadn't happened the government would not be as "starved" as it is. A condition the Republicans craved, AND the middle class wouldn't be as poor as it is now another condition the Republicans craved.

You're analogy is flawed. If I lose money on my investment because of the criminal actions of others that's stealing. If I make money off of my investment without a criminal act that's investing.

Your reasoning is flawed. It sounds like you are under the assumption that the investments you make are real money. They aren't. A share of stock in the stock market is just a piece of paper, and is about as worthless as the last piece of junk mail you received. It isn't until you disposition it (typically by selling) that it is then worth something. This is actually one of the reasons why casinos use chips instead of cash, because if I were to bring you a casino chip, it'd be worthless. It isn't until you disposition it at the cage that it can be worth something.

My analogy was an attempt to have you understand that. From the looks of it, though, you missed the point.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Your reasoning is flawed. It sounds like you are under the assumption that the investments you make are real money. They aren't. A share of stock in the stock market is just a piece of paper, and is about as worthless as the last piece of junk mail you received. It isn't until you disposition it (typically by selling) that it is then worth something. This is actually one of the reasons why casinos use chips instead of cash, because if I were to bring you a casino chip, it'd be worthless. It isn't until you disposition it at the cage that it can be worth something.

My analogy was an attempt to have you understand that. From the looks of it, though, you missed the point.

A house isn't a share of stock.