The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

True. It was the Socialist FDR who ruined this nation. Until he came into office everything was just fine.

Woodrow Wilson also did a bit of damage. Remember that he created the Fed.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Woodrow Wilson also did a bit of damage. Remember that he created the Fed.

Just another socialist. He built the coffin and FDR nailed it shut.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Just another socialist. He built the coffin and FDR nailed it shut.

And Jimmy Carter's mom sat on it.

[FreshFish]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

The founders fail to live up to this definition of "conservative," too. In 1776, the "trusting wisdom of elders" position would have been Tory/Loyalist. Thank goodness our founding fathers had their own novel, liberal ideas.

Thanks for the clarification. My choice of "founding fathers" was an ambiguous term, as technically I meant something a bit different than what I actually said.

Firstly, many of the people involved in the initial bid for independence (e.g Sam Adams and Thomas Paine, most notably) I'd consider "radicals" not "conservatives"; it was an unlikely alliance between radicals like Sam and conservatives like the well-to-do merchants who wanted to keep the tax dollars here rather than repatriate them out of the country, that fought side by side during the American Revolution. Jefferson in my taxonomy is clearly a "liberal" and not a "conservative", as well, and The Declaration of Independence, along with Martin Luther King Jr's "I have a dream" speech, are probably two of the most significant and eloquent expressions of "liberal" philosophy you can find anywhere, any time.

As I'm sure you recall, the first attempt at a central government, the Articles of Confederation, was not working as well as some people would have liked. That first "central" government did not have the necessary authority (in their view) adequately to referee conflicts between the states nor collectively to represent the states in foreign affairs. Many feared that the nascent nation would founder, rent asunder by internal conflicts, too weak to defend itself against an external foe.

Many historians call the enactment of the US Constitution the "conservative counter-revolution."

By "founding fathers" I was thinking more of luminaries like Hamilton, Madison, Jay (see The Federalist Papers), Washington, Franklin, "conservatives" all, the people whose writing and proselytizing convinced people to adopt the US Constitution, which is very much a "conservative" document. As I believe Rover pointed out, Washington "freed" his slaves in his will only after his wife's death.

And so, yes, our "first wave" of "founding fathers" was a nice mix of radicals, liberals, and conservatives, and even a few "monarchists" (who wanted to make Washington our first king!); which subsequently was upstaged by the persuasiveness of the solid "conservative" bloc that followed ten years later.



PS it does seem to be a truism that today's successful radicals become tomorrow's hide-bound conservatives! I think that drives some people crazy; because "the wisdom of your elders" keeps evolving.

[FreshFish]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

How could they have liberal ideas? The term "liberal" didn't come aboot until the mid 19th century in British Parliament.

You don't know your history very well, I guess, some historians consider the Magna Carta one of the very first "liberal" documents. I guess it depends upon whether you say "anyone who meets these criteria" is x vs anyone who calls themselves x is actually giving themselves an accurate label! Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations also is seen as a significant "liberal" document as well. It is quite interesting that The Declaration of Independence and The Wealth of Nations were both published in 1776; six or seven decades prior to the time you reference.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

You don't know your history very well, I guess, some historians consider the Magna Carta one of the very first "liberal" documents. I guess it depends upon whether you say "anyone who meets these criteria" is x vs anyone who calls themselves x is actually giving themselves an accurate label! Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations also is seen as a significant "liberal" document as well. It is quite interesting that The Declaration of Independence and The Wealth of Nations were both published in 1776; six or seven decades prior to the time you reference.

The term "liberal" (at least in reference to the party) came around aboot the 1860's. It netted me 1000 points in a recent trivia game. Just because a document could be seen as "liberal" doesn't mean the term was used at the time.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Wow. Even Gingrich is going bankrupt because of Health Care.

The Gingrich Group, also known as the Center for Health Transformation, filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy in federal court in Atlanta on Wednesday. The bankruptcy filing marks an abrupt turn for a group that raised millions of dollars just a few years ago to support and promote Gingrich's health care ideas.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/...or_bankruptcy/

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

And so, yes, our "first wave" of "founding fathers" was a nice mix of radicals, liberals, and conservatives, and even a few "monarchists" (who wanted to make Washington our first king!); which subsequently was upstaged by the persuasiveness of the solid "conservative" bloc that followed ten years later.

I believe John Adams wanted life terms for the President, and for him to be referred to as his "majesty".

[FreshFish]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

The term "liberal" (at least in reference to the party) came around aboot the 1860's. It netted me 1000 points in a recent trivia game. Just because a document could be seen as "liberal" doesn't mean the term was used at the time.

duh. so does that mean the Nazis really were "socialists" too just because that was in their formal name?

[LynahFan]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Fatties.

[sagard]

Fatties.

Time to start taxing fast food joints! Just like the cig tax.

[leswp1]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

I don't think you need to deny them care in true emergency situtations. You just need to be willing to stick them with the bill. Make it so the hosiptal can garnish their wages or receive a portion of their gov't benefits if they don't pay. Doesn't take care of all senarios, but he does provide a disincentive for many of them.

This is the current scenario except garnishing wages. They can't get that right for deadbeat Dads who owe boatloads of $ and are supposed to be paying for kid's insurance. I can't imagine the quagmire of doing this for thousands of people a yr. Yikes!

Fatties.

My head might asplode!! Of course we aren't supposed to weigh kids or tell them they are overweight - Privacy and all that. (Fun fact- research shows most parents have difficulty recognizing their kid is obese even when they are markedly obese) We cut the amount of recess, have school lunches that are an audiovisual aide for poor nutrition and a promotion of unhealthy food, we don't address nutrition and health is schools. Now they think we should do something? There are 2 generations of people who have been indoctrinated into poor eating, less exercise and affordable food being nutritiously bankrupt. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

And in other news- In this last work week I have been taking care of a string of people who have medical conditions that are wildly out of control because they cannot afford their medication. I keep thinking of this thread. It sucks that HIPPA makes it impossible for me to give specific examples but I wish some of you could see the result of having no medication despite people needing to get treatment. 'Catastrophic' plans include plans with 6000$ deductables. Yes 6K. This is obscene. Who the F is going to have 6K to meet this before they get it to kick in. When things get out of control this means loss of work. Less $ to make a deductible. I can't change the plan, I can't access samples to fill the gap. I can't get a case worker to help manage things. I can't even predict when disaster will happen because the meds are sporadically available. I have to watch as the person heads toward disaster because although I know what they need to do they can't do it. The only thing I can do is watch like waiting for a train wreck to happen. After the 3rd person in less than 2 days I was ready to quit and go work at McDonalds.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

This is the current scenario except garnishing wages. They can't get that right for deadbeat Dads who owe boatloads of $ and are supposed to be paying for kid's insurance. I can't imagine the quagmire of doing this for thousands of people a yr. Yikes!

My head might asplode!! Of course we aren't supposed to weigh kids or tell them they are overweight - Privacy and all that. (Fun fact- research shows most parents have difficulty recognizing their kid is obese even when they are markedly obese) We cut the amount of recess, have school lunches that are an audiovisual aide for poor nutrition and a promotion of unhealthy food, we don't address nutrition and health is schools. Now they think we should do something? There are 2 generations of people who have been indoctrinated into poor eating, less exercise and affordable food being nutritiously bankrupt. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

And in other news- In this last work week I have been taking care of a string of people who have medical conditions that are wildly out of control because they cannot afford their medication. I keep thinking of this thread. It sucks that HIPPA makes it impossible for me to give specific examples but I wish some of you could see the result of having no medication despite people needing to get treatment. 'Catastrophic' plans include plans with 6000$ deductables. Yes 6K. This is obscene. Who the F is going to have 6K to meet this before they get it to kick in. When things get out of control this means loss of work. Less $ to make a deductible. I can't change the plan, I can't access samples to fill the gap. I can't get a case worker to help manage things. I can't even predict when disaster will happen because the meds are sporadically available. I have to watch as the person heads toward disaster because although I know what they need to do they can't do it. The only thing I can do is watch like waiting for a train wreck to happen. After the 3rd person in less than 2 days I was ready to quit and go work at McDonalds.

Anyone remember when it was a good recommendation to have at least 5 grand in the bank for emergency situations? I know that's another thread, but seriously...

[leswp1]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Anyone remember when it was a good recommendation to have at least 5 grand in the bank for emergency situations? I know that's another thread, but seriously...

Ha. The avg joe should have 5K or more in the bank but if you bleed that out or more every yr most people can't sustain that. You can't save for the next yr when you aren't keeping up with this yr. The cost of healthcare is just so crazy these people (who do work, a lot, to keep up) aren't making it.

[duper]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Anyone remember when it was a good recommendation to have at least 5 grand in the bank for emergency situations? I know that's another thread, but seriously...

Just keep in mind that for a lot of people, 5 grand is about 3 months income. If 5 grand is 3 months income, there's not a snowball's chance in hell of saving it.