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Tax Season 2012: Work No Longer Pays

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  • pirate
    replied
    Re: Tax Season 2012: Work No Longer Pays

    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
    Interesting perspective....thanks.

    Now, we all do derive some benefits in exchange for taxes paid. I don't think anyone seriously advocates eliminating all taxes! The general problem with incremental government spending above what is necessary to provide essential government functions is the incredible "drag" produced by payroll costs.

    We have too many people on our town's payroll who don't do much work, for example; while there are some people on our town's payroll who are tremendously overworked. Yet town managers can't correct these imbalances.

    On the state level, it is even worse....sadly I know first-hand how many people collect paychecks for 37.5 hours who perhaps actually work less than an hour each day. yet if managers try to get them to do their jobs there is such insurrection it is astonishing. At the same time, there are a few people in the same place who do more work than four or five people comgined in comparable positions (a staff of five is supposed to produce x reports per month....at the end of five months, 5 * x reports are completed, all by the same person, none by the other four!!!).

    I imagine it is true on the federal level as well, though I have no direct knowledge. Still, I'd submit that SEALs are probably underpaid relative to the value they deliver while mid-level managers, given the advances in computer technology we've seen over the past decade, are way overpaid relative to the value they deliver.

    the general rule for all governments at any level is that there are too many managers relative to too few people who are actually "on the front lines" delivering true value to the public. I wonder what is the ratio between food safety inspectors and their supervisors at the FDA for one example....or how did the CFTC completely miss MF Global stealing from their customers? or how did the SEC ignore warnings they received about Madoff? yet they have multi-million dollar budgets and don't perform their essential functions!

    There would be a lot less resentment of "big government" if they actually delivered value in proportion to the money allocated. Too many layers of bureaucracy.

    While peoplemay decry the "profit" motive as based on avarice, we do need some measure of effectiveness, and no one has yet proposed a better one.
    years ago, Angus King (I) Gov of Maine, used to tell the story of how the Maine DOV spent millions on automating their systems and then he asked the audience how many fewer people they thought worked at DOV. The answer was 0, they automated everything and had the same number of people. Now, he then was Gov for 8 years so that may not have been true at the end.

    My personal favorite was the government agency that had something like 7k automatic raises for people making over $171k a year because they got a new director who made more than that so everybody below was entitled to an automatic increase in pay since it was tied to the pay of the director.

    Leave a comment:


  • FlagDUDE08
    replied
    Re: Tax Season 2012: Work No Longer Pays

    Originally posted by Priceless View Post
    Zing! You get no points for that because I left it on a tee for you.
    You should be embarrassed that someone like me, who very commonly misses those, actually made that zinger.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Tax Season 2012: Work No Longer Pays

    Originally posted by FlagDUDE08 View Post
    ...could have fooled us...
    Zing! You get no points for that because I left it on a tee for you.

    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
    few frat boys are.
    Mentally, not physically

    Leave a comment:


  • FreshFish
    replied
    Re: Tax Season 2012: Work No Longer Pays

    Originally posted by Priceless View Post
    No, because I'm not perpetually 8 years old.
    few frat boys are.

    Leave a comment:


  • FlagDUDE08
    replied
    Re: Tax Season 2012: Work No Longer Pays

    Originally posted by Priceless View Post
    No, because I'm not perpetually 8 years old.
    ...could have fooled us...

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Tax Season 2012: Work No Longer Pays

    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
    do you go around at parties asking people to pull your finger whenever you are flatulent too?
    No, because I'm not perpetually 8 years old.

    Leave a comment:


  • FreshFish
    replied
    Re: Tax Season 2012: Work No Longer Pays

    Originally posted by Priceless View Post
    I'll keep that in mind.
    Nice to know you have one!

    Seriously, we've had that "corporations are not people they are assemblages of people and assemblages of people be they corporations unions not-for-profits or political parties have been granted 1st amendment rights" converation so often already......

    do you go around at parties asking people to pull your finger whenever you are flatulent too?

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Tax Season 2012: Work No Longer Pays

    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
    Do you also keep a collection of dead equines in your barn that you go out and flog from time to time for sport?
    So if someone else makes a salient point you don't like you just deem it irrelevant. I'll keep that in mind.

    Leave a comment:


  • FreshFish
    replied
    Re: Tax Season 2012: Work No Longer Pays

    Originally posted by Almington View Post
    Now all you have to do is get everyone a significant majority to agree on what is necessary and essential.
    Oh, that's easy, if it benefits me or my family, it's necessary and essential, if it benefits anyone else, it's frivolous and extravagant.

    Like the [redacted] definition of "rich": anyone who makes more money than me.

    It's sort of the George Carlin school of politics, eh?

    Leave a comment:


  • Almington
    replied
    Re: Tax Season 2012: Work No Longer Pays

    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
    Interesting perspective....thanks.

    Now, we all do derive some benefits in exchange for taxes paid. I don't think anyone seriously advocates eliminating all taxes! The general problem with incremental government spending above what is necessary to provide essential government functions is the incredible "drag" produced by payroll costs.
    Now all you have to do is get everyone a significant majority to agree on what is necessary and essential. Good Luck with that.

    Leave a comment:


  • FreshFish
    replied
    Re: Tax Season 2012: Work No Longer Pays

    Originally posted by Priceless View Post
    Aren't corporations people?
    Do you also keep a collection of dead equines in your barn that you go out and flog from time to time for sport?

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Tax Season 2012: Work No Longer Pays

    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
    The burden of corporate income taxes is always shifted, by necessity, until eventually it is borne by real people.
    Aren't corporations people?

    Leave a comment:


  • FlagDUDE08
    replied
    Re: Tax Season 2012: Work No Longer Pays

    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
    the general rule for all governments at any level is that there are too many managers relative to too few people who are actually "on the front lines" delivering true value to the public. I wonder what is the ratio between food safety inspectors and their supervisors at the FDA for one example....or how did the CFTC completely miss MF Global stealing from their customers? or how did the SEC ignore warnings they received about Madoff? yet they have multi-million dollar budgets and don't perform their essential functions!
    Too many leaders isn't just in the private sector, it also occurs in the public sector. I guess it comes from the mentality that everyone wants to be the boss (I blame Todd Rundgren's song). Also, government regulation has caused for the need for management to deal with unnecessary paperwork, not to mention the overwork/underwork you mentioned, with the companies wanting to just layoff the underwork.

    Leave a comment:


  • FreshFish
    replied
    Re: Tax Season 2012: Work No Longer Pays

    Originally posted by Almington View Post
    By the same logic, the burden of all taxes are carried on all people in a society regardless if they are directly paying the tax or not. Taxes are opportunity costs, that is capital that can not be used in other efforts (that does not mean that the tax paying entity is not benefiting from the use of those tax dollars).
    Interesting perspective....thanks.

    Now, we all do derive some benefits in exchange for taxes paid. I don't think anyone seriously advocates eliminating all taxes! The general problem with incremental government spending above what is necessary to provide essential government functions is the incredible "drag" produced by payroll costs.

    We have too many people on our town's payroll who don't do much work, for example; while there are some people on our town's payroll who are tremendously overworked. Yet town managers can't correct these imbalances.

    On the state level, it is even worse....sadly I know first-hand how many people collect paychecks for 37.5 hours who perhaps actually work less than an hour each day. yet if managers try to get them to do their jobs there is such insurrection it is astonishing. At the same time, there are a few people in the same place who do more work than four or five people comgined in comparable positions (a staff of five is supposed to produce x reports per month....at the end of five months, 5 * x reports are completed, all by the same person, none by the other four!!!).

    I imagine it is true on the federal level as well, though I have no direct knowledge. Still, I'd submit that SEALs are probably underpaid relative to the value they deliver while mid-level managers, given the advances in computer technology we've seen over the past decade, are way overpaid relative to the value they deliver.

    the general rule for all governments at any level is that there are too many managers relative to too few people who are actually "on the front lines" delivering true value to the public. I wonder what is the ratio between food safety inspectors and their supervisors at the FDA for one example....or how did the CFTC completely miss MF Global stealing from their customers? or how did the SEC ignore warnings they received about Madoff? yet they have multi-million dollar budgets and don't perform their essential functions!

    There would be a lot less resentment of "big government" if they actually delivered value in proportion to the money allocated. Too many layers of bureaucracy.

    While peoplemay decry the "profit" motive as based on avarice, we do need some measure of effectiveness, and no one has yet proposed a better one.
    Last edited by FreshFish; 04-19-2012, 03:11 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Almington
    replied
    Re: Tax Season 2012: Work No Longer Pays

    Originally posted by FlagDUDE08 View Post
    It means that everyone pays for it. Customers due to increased prices, laborers due to relaxed benefits, and the company itself for total revenue loss due to a shrink in quantity of the product demanded.
    By the same logic, the burden of all taxes are carried on all people in a society regardless if they are directly paying the tax or not. Taxes are opportunity costs, that is capital that can not be used in other efforts (that does not mean that the tax paying entity is not benefiting from the use of those tax dollars).

    Leave a comment:

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