What the Fark???

[unofan]

Re: What the Fark???

You must have a real crappy cell phone.

Didn't have it on me.

[unofan]

Re: What the Fark???

My bro has many Stars'N'Bars on T-shirts, stickers, etc. For his generation, I suppose is the right term (a couple years younger than me), it just means a simpler way of life.

Maybe to him and his friends it means that...but I doubt such an interpretation is generational. No idea how old your brother is, but it's still a pretty strong symbol of the South and, by proxy, racism around here.

[state of hockey]

Re: What the Fark???

*****http://i56.tinypic.com/16m4oba.jpg******

Story here.

Probably indeed a badger, but it is still messed up.

[goldy_331]

Re: What the Fark???

*****http://i56.tinypic.com/16m4oba.jpg******

Story here.

Probably indeed a badger, but it is still messed up.

We don't need no stinkin BADgers!

[The Rube]

Re: What the Fark???

Maybe to him and his friends it means that...but I doubt such an interpretation is generational. No idea how old your brother is, but it's still a pretty strong symbol of the South and, by proxy, racism around here.

He is in his mid-30's. In MN. It really is not a racial thing around here, it just "identifies" you with a motorcyle/pickup drivin', campfires, beer, 'merica, no cityfolk style. Hell, I know what the true meaning is, but for me, it's been "pop-culturized" and lost its original meaning when people display it. Yes, part of that is probably because of the region I'm in, but I'm honest when I say when I see the Stars'n'Bars, I do not take it to mean a racial thing. It's just somebody that is representing country hicks (which is a view that is predjudiced in its own right).

[duper]

Re: What the Fark???

I would generally agree here ( I meant to quote unofan, so I am saying I agree with unofan). Lots of people mean different things in lots of different places by displaying the confederate flag. Hell, last summer I went into a gun shop in Budapest, and there was a confederate flag hanging there. And the owner was Hungarian. Some things just are what they are. And I'm certain that Brent's brother means nothing racist, but there is one undisputable fact.

Whatever revisionist history may tell you about states rights, whatever rednecks who happen not to be racist tell you about a simpler life, it stands for an army that rose up against their government (I believe the technical term for these people is traitors) and one of the major (I believe the biggest by far but revisionist historians will debate me here) issues was the right to own black people. So, while I don't believe that everyone who displays a confederate flag is racist, and I doubt that any really qualify as traitors anymore, it stands for racism. Every time. It stands for other stuff too, but it stands for racism every time.

That said, I highly doubt that Brent's brother gives a flying **** what my opinion is.

[The Rube]

Re: What the Fark???

I would generally agree here ( I meant to quote unofan, so I am saying I agree with unofan). Lots of people mean different things in lots of different places by displaying the confederate flag. Hell, last summer I went into a gun shop in Budapest, and there was a confederate flag hanging there. And the owner was Hungarian. Some things just are what they are. And I'm certain that Brent's brother means nothing racist, but there is one undisputable fact.

Whatever revisionist history may tell you about states rights, whatever rednecks who happen not to be racist tell you about a simpler life, it stands for an army that rose up against their government (I believe the technical term for these people is traitors) and one of the major (I believe the biggest by far but revisionist historians will debate me here) issues was the right to own black people. So, while I don't believe that everyone who displays a confederate flag is racist, and I doubt that any really qualify as traitors anymore, it stands for racism. Every time. It stands for other stuff too, but it stands for racism every time.

That said, I highly doubt that Brent's brother gives a flying **** what my opinion is.

And the swastika has changed meaning over time, too. Just sayin'. Yes, it's Godwin's law, but it is actually relevant here.

Too many passages to quote, so here's the wiki link, of which I can pretty much say is accurate, from what I've learned over the years: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

[state of hockey]

Re: What the Fark???

Yeah, but once the Nazis used it it was largely abandoned in the Western world.

I agree with the way that duper put it, especially the second paragraph.

[duper]

Re: What the Fark???

I should have prefaced my comment with something along the lines that I'm really not judging. I didn't look at your link (although I will) because I have a pretty good handle on what you mean. I want to say the swastika, or something very like it was the symbol of Hermes, among many many other things. Also, if you look at a Navajo rug woven before WWII you will probably find swastikas in it. Here's the thing, and it is the rub of my point; after WWII, most Navajo people stopped putting that symbol in their rugs, and never restarted.

Now, to be fair, the Confederacy wasn't trying to wipe out the black race, so the confederate flag will never be as offensive as the swastika. But I guess what I mean by the whole thing here is; no one should ever be surprised if a black person is offended by a confederate flag. As much as any given person may see it as totally benign, I can't control how a black man raised in Alabama in the 60's feels about that symbol any more than I can control how your brother sees the symbol.

If it were me, I would choose another symbol to show my pride in my way of life.

[The Rube]

Re: What the Fark???

Yeah, but once the Nazis used it it was largely abandoned in the Western world.

I agree with the way that duper put it, especially the second paragraph.

I understand his point, and given the short-attention span generalities of the American public, I really do think that outside of the southeast (in general), the meaning of the Stars'n'Bars have changed for the most part. Yes, I know there are rednecks that still believe that the South won, etc. It's BS. But for the average American, I do believe that it's more a Harley/Skynyrd/etc thing, not "I want slaves" thing.

BTW, an effed up thing I saw a few years ago: Hispanic with a Stars'n'Bars bandanna in his back pocket. In OK. It was........odd.

[duper]

Re: What the Fark???

For the record, Ronnie Van Zant refused to allow the confederate flag on anything with the Lynyrd Skynyrd name on it. The record companies wanted it because it would have been good marketing, but anything that says Lynyrd Skynyrd and has a confederate flag on it was produced after the death of RVZ.

And finally, I agree with Brent. It is a primarily harmless symbol. However, if I were to display it, I would expect that people would periodically mess with me, because I am displaying a symbol that millions of Americans perceive as racist.

The head of maintenance at Scammon Bay School, who is a Yup'ik Eskimo, has a confederate flag hanging in his office. This does make me smile.

[The Rube]

Re: What the Fark???

For the record, Ronnie Van Zant refused to allow the confederate flag on anything with the Lynyrd Skynyrd name on it. The record companies wanted it because it would have been good marketing, but anything that says Lynyrd Skynyrd and has a confederate flag on it was produced after the death of RVZ.

And finally, I agree with Brent. It is a primarily harmless symbol. However, if I were to display it, I would expect that people would periodically mess with me, because I am displaying a symbol that millions of Americans perceive as racist.

The head of maintenance at Scammon Bay School, who is a Yup'ik Eskimo, has a confederate flag hanging in his office. This does make me smile.

I knew about the Skynyrd thing, but it still represents that facet of I guess what you would call "lifestyle."

I guess the whole point is that the meaning of things CAN change, it's a matter of HOW it will change. So far, we've seen the swastika change for the bad, and the Stars'n'Bars (very generally) change for the good. Given the time periods (centuries vs what, 150 years or so?) I think we're doing okay. Hell, remember about 90 years ago, when "damn" was a censored word in anything but super private conversation?

[duper]

Re: What the Fark???

I agree that the meaning of things can change, you just have to keep in mind that not everyone will see the change.

[The Rube]

Re: What the Fark???

I agree that the meaning of things can change, you just have to keep in mind that not everyone will see the change.

And I can see eye-to-eye on that. I understand some people's feelings on that. I may disagree, but I respect their viewpoint

[bigblue_dl]

Re: What the Fark???

I don't see how people can think I'm racist when Brent is the one that wants to fly the flag of the CSA and go back to owning his very own Toby.