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  • Re: Nice Planet 2011

    Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    Can someone explain to me why this isn't a hate crime? That white guy was attacked by a mob of black people. If the roles were reversed there would be riots in the streets.
    As much as I (ugh, this hurts) agree with you that there are black-on-white 'hate crimes', this (IMHO) is not one. They were rebelling against the official in his capacity of calling fouls against them, but probably not because he was a white guy. Of course, I am 2000 miles away and have no idea what was going on - just my own HO.
    Last edited by MadTownSioux; 09-02-2011, 10:03 PM.
    Fighting Sioux Forever

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    • Re: Nice Planet 2011

      Originally posted by MadTownSioux View Post
      As much as I (ugh, this hurts) agree with you that there is black-on-white 'hate crimes', this (IMHO) is not one. They were rebelling against the official in his capacity of calling fouls against them, but probably not because he was a white guy. Of course, I am 2000 miles away and have no idea what was going on - just my own HO.
      Yep. Not sure what the exact law is in Florida, but I know in Wisconsin (and I assume it's relatively similar elsewhere) a crime is a hate crime if committed specifically because of a person's race, not simply because it's one race on another. Like you say, this seems to have been more about his official capacity than his race.

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      • Re: Nice Planet 2011

        Originally posted by MadTownSioux View Post
        As much as I (ugh, this hurts) agree with you that there is black-on-white 'hate crimes', this (IMHO) is not one. They were rebelling against the official in his capacity of calling fouls against them, but probably not because he was a white guy. Of course, I am 2000 miles away and have no idea what was going on - just my own HO.
        I believe the point he was making was: what if this was a mirror image event. A mob of white people attacking (and fracturing the shoulder) of an AA referee? Hate crime charges would seem to be much more probable in that event. The local race baiters would be out in force, pandering to their constituencies, and the pressure to "enhance" the charges would be extraordinary. I don't think hate crime charges are appropriate here, no matter who did what. I'll bet those three coaches had no idea that in Florida, what they did was is a felony. Oops.
        2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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        • Re: Nice Planet 2011

          I am thinking about a certain episode of South Park. Oh yeah, it's this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartman...ate_Crime_2000

          The boys then put on a presentation before the governor, complete with visual aids, in which they detail their opposition to hate crime laws, declaring it a "savage hypocrisy," and arguing that all forms of crime warrant some sort of hate, and that the laws serve only to encourage discrimination further. The governor is impressed.
          Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
          Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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          • Re: Nice Planet 2011

            Originally posted by Old Pio View Post
            I believe the point he was making was: what if this was a mirror image event. A mob of white people attacking (and fracturing the shoulder) of an AA referee? Hate crime charges would seem to be much more probable in that event. The local race baiters would be out in force, pandering to their constituencies, and the pressure to "enhance" the charges would be extraordinary. I don't think hate crime charges are appropriate here, no matter who did what. I'll bet those three coaches had no idea that in Florida, what they did was is a felony. Oops.
            Yes, this.

            I don't actually think it was a hate crime. But every time a minority (race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.) is attacked by a non-minority, it gets trumped up. Even if it had NOTHING to do with their race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. Personally, I think hate crime charges should be reserved for all but the most obvious cases. Matthew Shepherd, the guy in Texas who was dragged to death (can't recall the name), and other cases of the sort.
            Code:
            As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
            College Hockey 6       College Football 0
            BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
            Originally posted by SanTropez
            May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
            Originally posted by bigblue_dl
            I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
            Originally posted by Kepler
            When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
            He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

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            • Re: Nice Planet 2011

              Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
              Yes, this.

              I don't actually think it was a hate crime. But every time a minority (race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.) is attacked by a non-minority, it gets trumped up. Even if it had NOTHING to do with their race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. Personally, I think hate crime charges should be reserved for all but the most obvious cases. Matthew Shepherd, the guy in Texas who was dragged to death (can't recall the name), and other cases of the sort.
              Mr. Byrd in Jasper. Imagine the surprise of that lead defendant when the one black dude was elected foreman of the jury, oops. You've put your finger squarely on the problem with trying to read the minds of criminals to determine their motivations. And the political reality these days is that those motivations will frequently be devined one way for white criminals and another for black criminals with the same evidence available. Put an end to this nonsense and get back to administering justice equally, to all. BTW, the thinking in the Mathew Shepherd case is that those thugs may not have been motivated by his sexual orientation. That they just wanted to rob the rich tiny little guy. Assuming that's the case, does that make their horrific crime better?
              Last edited by Old Pio; 09-04-2011, 02:58 AM.
              2011 Poser of the Year & Pulitzer Prize winning machine gunner.

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              • Re: Nice Planet 2011

                Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                Yes, this.

                I don't actually think it was a hate crime. But every time a minority (race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.) is attacked by a non-minority, it gets trumped up. Even if it had NOTHING to do with their race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. Personally, I think hate crime charges should be reserved for all but the most obvious cases. Matthew Shepherd, the guy in Texas who was dragged to death (can't recall the name), and other cases of the sort.
                Matthew Shepherd doesn't count and he's an abomination. (Take one quick guess what this ******* is.)


                Hate crimes aren't hate crime because the person doing it is just angry, it's because they are purposely targeting someone because they hate what they are. As pointed out it's not exactly hard to figure out why that guy getting beaten isn't a hate crime.

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                • Re: Nice Planet 2011

                  Originally posted by Foxton View Post
                  Hate crimes aren't hate crime because the person doing it is just angry, it's because they are purposely targeting someone because they hate what they are. As pointed out it's not exactly hard to figure out why that guy getting beaten isn't a hate crime.
                  I think you're missing my point. I don't think this actually warrants hate crimes charges.
                  Code:
                  As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
                  College Hockey 6       College Football 0
                  BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
                  Originally posted by SanTropez
                  May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                  Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                  I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                  Originally posted by Kepler
                  When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                  He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

                  Comment


                  • Re: Nice Planet 2011

                    Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                    I think you're missing my point. I don't think this actually warrants hate crimes charges.
                    Define your point then. What would constitute a hate crime to you?

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                    • Re: Nice Planet 2011

                      Originally posted by Foxton View Post
                      Define your point then. What would constitute a hate crime to you?
                      What's the difference between a person shot because he's gay and a person shot because he has a fat wallet?
                      Code:
                      As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
                      College Hockey 6       College Football 0
                      BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
                      Originally posted by SanTropez
                      May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                      Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                      I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                      Originally posted by Kepler
                      When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                      He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

                      Comment


                      • Re: Nice Planet 2011

                        Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                        What's the difference between a person shot because he's gay and a person shot because he has a fat wallet?
                        No no, you said "Personally, I think hate crime charges should be reserved for all but the most obvious cases." what is your definition for these obvious cases?

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                        • Re: Nice Planet 2011

                          So was this a hate crime
                          http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/126828998.html
                          I swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell.

                          Maine Hockey Love it or Leave it

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                          • Re: Nice Planet 2011

                            Originally posted by Foxton View Post
                            No no, you said "Personally, I think hate crime charges should be reserved for all but the most obvious cases." what is your definition for these obvious cases?
                            Ok, let me clarify. As the law applies now, I think they should be reserved for cases where it can be established beyond a reasonable doubt, the crimes were committed because the person was minority, and that it was the primary motivation behind the crime. If the primary motive is robbery and it just happens the person who committed the crime was white and the victim was black, it's not a hate crime. If the guy was walking down the street and some guys just wanted to beat up a black guy, yes, that's a hate crime as the law is today.

                            However, I'm not sure I agree with the principle of a hate crime. I'm not sure I believe there is a difference between a guy getting beat up for the color of his skin, gender, sexual orientation, etc. is any different than a guy getting beat up because he is wearing a Rolex and someone else wants it.
                            Code:
                            As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
                            College Hockey 6       College Football 0
                            BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
                            Originally posted by SanTropez
                            May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                            Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                            I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                            Originally posted by Kepler
                            When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                            He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

                            Comment


                            • Re: Nice Planet 2011

                              Originally posted by walrus View Post
                              Was it? Conflicting personal testimonies to what was going on. Some said "oh it was just black on white" and other that said it was everybody against those not in the mob. Were those 31 arrested all black? All the injured white or police? Not a lot of information to go off of and personal testimonies aren't super reliable in a panic situation.

                              Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
                              Ok, let me clarify. As the law applies now, I think they should be reserved for cases where it can be established beyond a reasonable doubt, the crimes were committed because the person was minority, and that it was the primary motivation behind the crime. If the primary motive is robbery and it just happens the person who committed the crime was white and the victim was black, it's not a hate crime. If the guy was walking down the street and some guys just wanted to beat up a black guy, yes, that's a hate crime as the law is today.

                              However, I'm not sure I agree with the principle of a hate crime. I'm not sure I believe there is a difference between a guy getting beat up for the color of his skin, gender, sexual orientation, etc. is any different than a guy getting beat up because he is wearing a Rolex and someone else wants it.
                              You kind of mixed your view in there I think, where it can be shown that there's no reasonable doubt that it was primarily motivated out of hate for what someone is or perceived to be. (And it has to be dragging people down the street level behind their car extreme) That it?

                              The end result is of course the same while motivations are different. Beating someone up to steal their watch, the victims circumstances, race, gender, who they're attracted to is irrelevant. It's just the crime. The other betrays a certain viciousness and unacceptable position to even voice that's above and beyond the crime itself. I'll reference that Southpark episode where the KKK wanted the flag to stay the same and whichever side they were on were was going to lose just because their position is that caustic.

                              It's just a matter of degree and clearly it needs to be shown that it wasn't just some over simplified definition like 'white man against black man automatically means hate crime'. It has a nebulous component to it (what is acceptable hate? Is hating someone for being more wealthy than you the same as hating someone for having a different skin color) but you gave a decent summary that works as a good method to judge it.

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                              • Re: Nice Planet 2011

                                Originally posted by Foxton View Post
                                You kind of mixed your view in there I think, where it can be shown that there's no reasonable doubt that it was primarily motivated out of hate for what someone is or perceived to be. (And it has to be dragging people down the street level behind their car extreme) That it?

                                The end result is of course the same while motivations are different. Beating someone up to steal their watch, the victims circumstances, race, gender, who they're attracted to is irrelevant. It's just the crime. The other betrays a certain viciousness and unacceptable position to even voice that's above and beyond the crime itself. I'll reference that Southpark episode where the KKK wanted the flag to stay the same and whichever side they were on were was going to lose just because their position is that caustic.

                                It's just a matter of degree and clearly it needs to be shown that it wasn't just some over simplified definition like 'white man against black man automatically means hate crime'. It has a nebulous component to it (what is acceptable hate? Is hating someone for being more wealthy than you the same as hating someone for having a different skin color) but you gave a decent summary that works as a good method to judge it.
                                The fact that it's so nebulous and difficult to define is why I probably have conflicting views. I honestly don't expect to ever find a resolution to my satisfaction with regards to hate crime laws
                                Code:
                                As of 9/21/10:         As of 9/13/10:
                                College Hockey 6       College Football 0
                                BTHC 4                 WCHA FC:  1
                                Originally posted by SanTropez
                                May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
                                Originally posted by bigblue_dl
                                I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
                                Originally posted by Kepler
                                When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
                                He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West

                                Comment

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