Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

    Originally posted by joecct View Post
    There is something about war by drone and/or war by robot that unsettles me. One of the deterrents to war is its horror. When you take away the stench by killing the bad guys from thousands of miles away, it becomes a video game and less horrific and easier to do.

    Killing should be the last resort of the nation-state. Making it easy and antiseptic to one side is wrong.
    This post reminds me of a classic Star Trek episode. Two planets were "at war" and when one of them "attacked" the other with a "missile," grids would light up on a computer screen and people who lived in those areas lined up to go into an extermination chamber. Yes, because "real" war was so messy, they turned it into a game of Battleship instead, except that real people died, voluntarily, so that the antiseptic version could continue.

    Of course Kirk and crew disrupted the scheme and the planets had to make real peace with each other.

    There are two critiques of this US war-by-drone strategy that I've heard that make me stop and think a bit:
    > we are killing these people "merely" so we don't have to take them prisoner; then we can side-step all the issues about what kiind of legal status they should have as prisoners.
    > by killing them instead of capturing them, we lose out on the opportunity to interrogate them and develop better intelligence on how to stop prospective attacks.
    Last edited by FreshFish; 06-06-2012, 09:50 AM.
    "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

    "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

    "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

    "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

    Comment


    • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

      Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
      This post reminds me of a classic Star Trek episode. Two planets were "at war" and when one of them "attacked" the other with a "missile," grids would light up on a computer screen and people who lived in those areas lined up to go into an extermination chamber. Yes, because "real" war was so messy, they turned it into a game of Battleship instead, except that real people died, voluntarily, so that the antiseptic version could continue.

      Of course Kirk and crew disrupted the scheme and the planets had to make real peace with each other.
      I thought of the same episode. The Prime Directive really takes it in the ass that episode.
      Cornell University
      National Champion 1967, 1970
      ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
      Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

      Comment


      • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

        Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
        This post reminds me of a classic Star Trek episode. Two planets were "at war" and when one of them "attacked" the other with a "missile," grids would light up on a computer screen and people who lived in those areas lined up to go into an extermination chamber. Yes, because "real" war was so messy, they turned it into a game of Battleship instead, except that real people died, voluntarily, so that the antiseptic version could continue.

        Of course Kirk and crew disrupted the scheme and the planets had to make real peace with each other.

        There are two critiques of this US war-by-drone strategy that I've heard that make me stop and think a bit:
        > we are killing these people "merely" so we don't have to take them prisoner; then we can side-step all the issues about what kiind of legal status they should have as prisoners.
        > by killing them instead of capturing them, we lose out on the opportunity to interrogate them and develop better intelligence on how to stop prospective attacks.
        I'm much more worried about your second critique than the first. I little waterboarding could provide quite a bit of information, we wouldn't want to waste that opportunity.
        Having a clear conscience just means you have a bad memory or you had a boring weekend.

        RIP - Kirby

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Kepler View Post
          I like that book.

          The first third of Starship Troopers is good (the "self-teaching" part); then it goes to StupidTown.

          Edit: big brain fart, I was thinking of Battlefield Earth! I've never read Starship Troopers.
          You should read it. It's well worth the time.
          My Four Favorite teams:
          RIT and anyone who is beating Canisius
          Cornell and anyone who is beating Harvard

          If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. - James Madison

          I am not afraid of terrorism, and I want the Government to stop being afraid on my behalf. I understand that it will not be possible to stop all terrorist acts. I am not afraid!!!!

          Comment


          • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

            Originally posted by MattS View Post
            You should read it. It's well worth the time.
            I actually don't know how I missed it. Between 15 and 18 I swear I read every scifi novel written between 1950 and 1970.
            Cornell University
            National Champion 1967, 1970
            ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
            Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

            Comment


            • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

              Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
              This post reminds me of a classic Star Trek episode. Two planets were "at war" and when one of them "attacked" the other with a "missile," grids would light up on a computer screen and people who lived in those areas lined up to go into an extermination chamber. Yes, because "real" war was so messy, they turned it into a game of Battleship instead, except that real people died, voluntarily, so that the antiseptic version could continue.

              Of course Kirk and crew disrupted the scheme and the planets had to make real peace with each other.

              There are two critiques of this US war-by-drone strategy that I've heard that make me stop and think a bit:
              > we are killing these people "merely" so we don't have to take them prisoner; then we can side-step all the issues about what kiind of legal status they should have as prisoners.
              > by killing them instead of capturing them, we lose out on the opportunity to interrogate them and develop better intelligence on how to stop prospective attacks.
              I've always wondered if we could use "Court Martial" to argue against speed cameras.
              CCT '77 & '78
              4 kids
              5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
              1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

              ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
              - Benjamin Franklin

              Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

              I want to live forever. So far, so good.

              Comment


              • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

                Originally posted by joecct View Post
                I've always wondered if we could use "Court Martial" to argue against speed cameras.
                I speak of rights! A machine has none. A man must. My client has the right to face his accuser, and if you do not grant him that right, you have brought us down to the level of the machine! Indeed, you have elevated that machine above us! I ask that my motion be granted. And more than that, gentlemen - in the name of a humanity fading in the shadow of the machine - I demand it. I demand it!
                Cornell University
                National Champion 1967, 1970
                ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

                Comment


                • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

                  Syrians shot down a Turkish F-4, Turkey is asking NATO to invoke Article 4.

                  http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/24/world/...html?hpt=hp_t2

                  Two interesting things. The plane was brought down by flak. That has only a 2-3 mile range, IIRC. That means you're really not where you're supposed to be.

                  Second, the BBC's graphic on the plane's alleged flight looks like they were basically leaving it out there as bait to be shot at.

                  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18568412

                  *****http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/61094000/gif/_61094872_turkey_syria_map464.gif******

                  Basically looks like an excuse to execute a run-around on the Russians in the Security Council by making it a NATO issue.
                  "I went over the facts in my head, and admired how much uglier the situation had just become. Over the years I've learned that ignorance is more than just bliss. It's freaking orgasmic ecstasy".- Harry Dresden, Blood Rites


                  Western Michigan Bronco Hockey- 2012 Mason Cup Champions

                  Comment


                  • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

                    Originally posted by bronconick View Post
                    Syrians shot down a Turkish F-4, Turkey is asking NATO to invoke Article 4.

                    http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/24/world/...html?hpt=hp_t2

                    Two interesting things. The plane was brought down by flak. That has only a 2-3 mile range, IIRC. That means you're really not where you're supposed to be.

                    Second, the BBC's graphic on the plane's alleged flight looks like they were basically leaving it out there as bait to be shot at.

                    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18568412

                    *****http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/61094000/gif/_61094872_turkey_syria_map464.gif******

                    Basically looks like an excuse to execute a run-around on the Russians in the Security Council by making it a NATO issue.
                    May have been bait, but from the graphic it appears the F-4 never crossed into Syrian air space. It could have been an electronic intelligence gathering mission for all we know.
                    CCT '77 & '78
                    4 kids
                    5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                    1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                    ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                    - Benjamin Franklin

                    Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                    I want to live forever. So far, so good.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

                      And one more thing before going to bed...

                      If the Washington Post wrote it, it has to be true?? http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...y.html?hpid=z4
                      CCT '77 & '78
                      4 kids
                      5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                      1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                      ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                      - Benjamin Franklin

                      Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                      I want to live forever. So far, so good.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

                        Originally posted by joecct View Post
                        And one more thing before going to bed...

                        If the Washington Post wrote it, it has to be true?? http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...y.html?hpid=z4
                        If the president had even gone for a peace deal with the Taliban - much less gotten one - we would be hearing how he had forsaken our troops and "surrendered" to the enemy. Hell, just for renewing a treaty with the Russians we've had since Nixon's days he's been called a traitor. He'd probably be facing Articles of Impeachment instead of reelection.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                          If the president had even gone for a peace deal with the Taliban - much less gotten one - we would be hearing how he had forsaken our troops and "surrendered" to the enemy. Hell, just for renewing a treaty with the Russians we've had since Nixon's days he's been called a traitor. He'd probably be facing Articles of Impeachment instead of reelection.
                          Nixon treated with North Vietnam. And the Congress then turned its back on South Vietnam. Nobody went into early retirement because of that.

                          The Panama Canal on the other hand....
                          CCT '77 & '78
                          4 kids
                          5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                          1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                          ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                          - Benjamin Franklin

                          Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                          I want to live forever. So far, so good.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

                            Originally posted by joecct View Post
                            Nixon treated with North Vietnam. And the Congress then turned its back on South Vietnam. Nobody went into early retirement because of that.
                            This isn't the 1970's.

                            We'd have an ad that shows Obama piloting the plane into tower two at the WTC.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Priceless View Post
                              This isn't the 1970's.

                              We'd have an ad that shows Obama piloting the plane into tower two at the WTC.
                              That would be 1964.
                              CCT '77 & '78
                              4 kids
                              5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                              1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                              ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                              - Benjamin Franklin

                              Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                              I want to live forever. So far, so good.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

                                A fascinating story about the state of the union.
                                Huskies are very intelligent and trainable. Huskies make an excellent jogging companion, as long as it is not too hot. Grooming is minimal; bathing is normally unnecessary.
                                USCHO Fantasy Baseball Champion 2011 2013 2015

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X