Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

[huskyfan]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

the verdict on Iraq is a long way out. but I'm always hopeful that given a choice people choose freedom.

[Terrierbyassociation]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

the verdict on Iraq is a long way out. but I'm always hopeful that given a choice people choose freedom.

Maybe we should have let them make that choice for themselves instead of making it for them.

[BoomGoestheDynamite]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

the verdict on Iraq is a long way out. but I'm always hopeful that given a choice people choose freedom.

The problem with "freedom of choice" in a large number of these new democracies is that majority rule is frequently embraced, but the other bedrock of our political system, protection of minority/individual rights and privacy, is frequently ignored. Throw into the mix post-colonial states made up of various ethnic groups with a maze of interwoven historical grievances and importing democracy wholesale to large sections of the third world is extremely risky.

[Handyman]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

The problem with "freedom of choice" in a large number of these new democracies is that majority rule is frequently embraced, but the other bedrock of our political system, protection of minority/individual rights and privacy, is frequently ignored. Throw into the mix post-colonial states made up of various ethnic groups with a maze of interwoven historical grievances and importing democracy wholesale to large sections of the third world is extremely risky.

Well remember that wasnt ALWAYS one of the tenants of our democracy, it took decades for that to be true. These things have to grow over time you cant just force equality on people it will never stick.

[Patman]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

When has Cuba ever expressed even the slightest hint that they want democracy?

When do they get the chance? Even if what the left says is true about GITMO those would be only the SECOND worst abuses of human rights on that island. This would on the same line as saying "when has the North Koreans ever expressed the slightest hint that they want freedom?"

Totalitarianism is totalitarian for a reason.

[Handyman]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

When do they get the chance? Even if what the left says is true about GITMO those would be only the SECOND worst abuses of human rights on that island. This would on the same line as saying "when has the North Koreans ever expressed the slightest hint that they want freedom?"

Totalitarianism is totalitarian for a reason.

So we should just assume they do AND INVADE!!! It is obvious they want their democracy so lets just give it to them and if they fight it too bad WE SAID THEY HAVE TO HAVE IT!

Let them fight their own battles, you are a conservative shouldn't you agree with me?

[Patman]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

So we should just assume they do AND INVADE!!! It is obvious they want their democracy so lets just give it to them and if they fight it too bad WE SAID THEY HAVE TO HAVE IT!

Let them fight their own battles, you are a conservative shouldn't you agree with me?

I'm whatever I am... I'll agree whenever I feel like it.

Do I believe we should invade Cuba? No... the effort would be way too costly though if it were done tomorrow I think we could win in 3 days as the Castro boys would be caught off guard and only Chavez would scream about it.

I believe that there should be, in those of all western nations, a desire and an obligation to bring freedom and democratic principles to as many of those nations and peoples as we can. While some of this will of course need to be organic we can promote these methods without firing bullets... but we aren't.

I think the US policy should be one of open moral humiliation at the expense of the Castro brothers. I think we should air-drop subversive books into Cuba which one can buy at a B&N or Borders and do so without reservation or complaint. I think all manners of support should be given to free peoples even if they are just the tools needed to facilitate education in western thought and the ideology of democracy (and not some post-modernist mish-mash thereof). Instead of them annoying us we should be annoying them... be the man in the chicken suit who won't let you eat lunch.

I think as much of it needs to be locally supported as possible... we have neither means or the resources to save the world on our own right... of course to this end Europe should step up to the plate. Places without literacy need it, those with literacy need the tools, and when their government suppresses those tools we should go the extra mile and not be ashamed of it. If a dictator or his supporters are susceptible to humiliation through the notion of the freedom of ideas then we should exploit it.

Now tell me... how can we know the pulse of a nation if there is no way for that nation to speak and speak freely. How can we defend the notions of free people and free societies if we do not help those, in some manner, held in bondage by their governments?

[Handyman]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

We can't...and therein lies the problem. I guess I just dont think it is our duty to thrust democracy upon people or a country. I am all for educating the masses but beyond that we have no business telling them how they should be living their lives.

Why is it the US, a country that has about a million problems of its own right now, that needs to be "break the bonds" so to speak. Aren't we overextended enough. I know you mentioned Europe but that seems like a stretch when talking about Cuba because they are so far away. (I agree they should be all over the former Eastern Block and even Africa if that is what you meant) We just dont have the resources, manpower, or cash to be helping out the oppressed assuming they even want it.

Look I am not a strict isolationist, in fact normally I am all for helping out wherever needed but right now is not the time. We have a war in Afghanistan, a war in Iraq and we are losing money faster than we can print it! Get us out of Iraq (we gave them democracy already time to move on) and maybe I can see about helping out Cuba but how do you propose we go about airdropping these books into Cuba? How will we pay for it? What if it yields nothing? Right now we need to be worrying about the USA not anyone else.

[joecct]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

the verdict on Iraq is a long way out. but I'm always hopeful that given a choice people choose freedom.

Some thoughts while waiting for the FIOS guy to show up. He'll be here between 8 and 12. Odds will be 11:45 AM...

Call me a cynic, but they're tribal/clan based and that is the first loyalty. It's like trying to create Yugoslavia from all the Balkan states. As long as you had a strongman sitting on the powder keg (Tito or Saddam), everything looked OK.

Remove the stopper and you get a mell of a hess. Religious / tribal / clan wars all over the place. It did not stop in the Balkans until it went back to essentially 1914 borders. Wonder what Iraq will look like in 10 years or so.

What GWB forgot or ignored was the endgame. He (we) had enough pieces to win the initial phase, but politics abhors a vacuum and when Saddam died he left one heck of a power vacuum that we did not have the stuffing to fill.

Democracy over there? HAH! Benevolent despot (OUR despot, buy the way) may be the way to go.

[LynahFan]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

(OUR despot, buy the way)

Heh. Nice Freudian slip...

[Kepler]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

The trouble with supporting despotism is the people of the country identify you with the despot. That's fine while he's still in power, but once they have their democratic revolution, you're part of the oppressive history. Once Saudi Arabia and Egypt become democracies, their populations are going to hate us with the fury of hell for being in cahoots with their oppressors for decades -- in the case of the Saudis, for actually imposing the government in the first place.

The foreign policy that lives up to our values and yields the most practical results is to offer lots of humanitarian aid to any people regardless of its government, never support any totalitarian or authoritarian regime despot with military aid unless it's a very temporary effort to combat some even more dangerous enemy, like terrorists in their territory who may also come after us, and encourage non-violent liberalization, particularly democratic reform from within the government itself, as a gradual evolution will lead to a less catastrophic transition than revolution.

We have a great system and, considered by the standards of expansionist empires of the past, excellent intentions. We just need to remember that deeds carry more impact than words, and when a village gets bombed its population will consider the bomber to be a murderous enemy for generations. We didn't invade Germany and Japan to liberate Germans and Japanese -- we did it to protect ourselves. You don't win hearts and minds by killing people's kids.

[ScottM]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

The foreign policy that lives up to our values and yields the most practical results is to offer lots of humanitarian aid to any people regardless of its government, never support any totalitarian or authoritarian regime despot with military aid unless it's a very temporary effort to combat some even more dangerous enemy, like terrorists in their territory who may also come after us, and encourage non-violent liberalization, particularly democratic reform from within the government itself, as a gradual evolution will lead to a less catastrophic transition than revolution.

Did you actually write that sentence with a straight face?

[huskyfan]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

freedom for everyone!! even if you are a tribal / clan base society. we all have the right to human dignities. I can never support the idea of a despot.

[ScottM]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

I can never support the idea of a despot.

How can you be so unsupportive of US foreign policy?

[huskyfan]

Re: Global War on Terror III: Dick Cheney's Hague ICC Vacation

How can you be so unsupportive of US foreign policy?

didn't Bush change that? no more supporting undemocratic regimes?